April 14, 2026

Unveiling the Paranormal: An Anthropological Perspective

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Unveiling the Paranormal: An Anthropological Perspective
Unveiling the Paranormal: An Anthropological Perspective
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Join us as we explore the fascinating intersection of anthropology and paranormal phenomena with Ryan and Chris from Beyond the Human Podcasts. Discover how cultural perspectives shape paranormal experiences, the importance of respectful inquiry, and groundbreaking research projects that aim to understand high strangeness.

https://beyondthehumanpod.start.page/?utm_source=ig&utm_medium=social&utm_content=link_in_bio&fbclid=PAZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAc3J0YwZhcHBfaWQMMjU2MjgxMDQwNTU4AAGn3S4E32wbF5FfDSHhVw8MQNfnop4lBdrZqfJaUqNrbhDGyZonqlDWN6RzUiI_aem_pcU71GfprE-oGVyFGW5Qsw

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Books-

What We Have (Grid Collapse Series Book 1)What We Have (Grid Collapse Series Book 1)

The War You Didn’t Know You Were In: Understanding and Winning the Spiritual Battle

CREATURES AT THE EDGE: Cryptids, Archetypes, and the Human Encounter with Mystery (At the Edge Series)

The Last Witch Hunter’s Journal


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We all heard something running up at us, and something

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grabbed me by the throat and started choking me physically

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and pushed me back, and people who were with me

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saw like the finger footprints.

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Around my throat. That was a weird one.

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We The way it sort of stopped it, honestly, was

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was with holy water, which is exercise water. That and

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some prayers. But something was actually holding me by the throat,

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kind of pulling me up.

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So that was a.

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That was dramatic.

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Broadcasting Seeds.

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Broad chesting seeds in the minds of the people. All right, everybody,

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welcome back to another episode of Broadcasting Seeds. I am

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your host, Benettantan, and today we have Ryan and Chris

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from Beyond the Human podcast podcast. Wow, you can't talk,

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so guys, tell us who you are and whatever order

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you would like.

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Tell us who you are, what you do, and.

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Where is the best place for people to find you?

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You can start Ryan, all right, I go, okay, So

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my name is Ryan Deckner. I am a cultural anthropologist

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by training, and I guess the best place to find

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so it was what is who I am? Yeah?

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Yeah, just who you are, what you do, and the

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best place to find out?

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Yes, yeah, So most of what I do is help

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dis verities research. I've worked with Chris for twelve years

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at this point. I've known her for a little bit

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longer than that, and I've been interested in the paranormal

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for a really long time, almost that whole time, really,

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even since I was a kid. And the best place

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to find me, I guess is my website, Ryan Geckner

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dot com. You can find out about all of my research,

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all of the stuff we're doing with the podcast on

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there is and the one other place I guess to

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find me is on Instagram. At Molders Bookshelf, I do

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lots of paranormal book reviews, so that's kind of my

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little fun thing that I do on the side to

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help do stuff with the podcast.

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Awesome.

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So, Hi, I'm Chris. I'm a professor at Lehigh University.

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I'm an applied medical anthropologist by training, which if that

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sounds really confusing, it is most people. It means that

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I sort of live at the intersection of culture and medicine,

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and so I've been interested in the paranormal for a

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long time.

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Really most of my life, but I think I got

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most interested.

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After I started doing I do a lot of work

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with healing and specifically healing outside of the allopathic or

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biological medical system, and so I got interested in paranormal

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things that meet people unwell.

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And I've been doing investigations.

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And other things in that realm for probably about thirty

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years now, but mostly from that health angle.

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Best please to find me in my garden.

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That's probably this. I will have a website soon. Please

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don't go to my faculty website. It's boring, but I

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have a new website that's coming outline soon.

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Awesome.

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So the first question I always ask everyone is what

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got you into.

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This whole world of a better way?

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I always say high strangeness because it encompasses everything. So yeah,

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if you guys can answer that individually, that would be awesome.

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I guess I can go first. So, like I said,

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I've been interested in the paranormal for pretty much as

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long as I can remember. I mean, I remember the

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first time I saw like the Patterson Gimlin film. I

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remember watching that like Honey and Connecticut Discovery Special like that.

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That really sticks out for me for some reason, and

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so I've always really I've had an interest. And then

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when I got into college, I took a class actually

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with Chris's husband Sean. He used to teach an anthropology,

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the Paranormal and Supernatural class. And at the time, I

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had told myself I was gonna decide. I was. I

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was thinking about going either the professional photography route or

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the theater stagecraft route and which like totally lucrative careers

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here all around, And I told myself I was. I

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think I was in my second to last semester in

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my associate's degree, and I was like, okay, I'm gonna pick.

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And I had I had classes in each of those,

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and then I needed I needed some like non Western

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requirement or something like that, and Sewn's class sounded cool.

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I also took his cultural anthropology class that semester, and

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I think probably after week two, I was like, well,

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forget or forget theater, forget photography, anthropologies where it's at.

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I guess I've always been interested in that kind of stuff,

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and it just I just didn't know what it's called,

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which I think is pretty common among a lot of

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US anthropologists. We're all like, oh, yeah, I was always

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into this stuff, but I just fell into it, and

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so I, you know, one thing led to another and

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fourteen almost yeah, almost fourteen years later. I've got a

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PhD in anthropology now, and so I just kind of

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stuck with it. And I think my interest in the paranormal,

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apart from you know, just watching shows and seeing stuff

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on TV, I've always had an interest in religion. So

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my master's degrees in religious studies, and that always for

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me dovetailed very nicely with the paranormal. But I never

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really did anything, I guess, official in terms of research

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with the paranormal until recently with our new project, which

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we'll talk about, but we you know, we ran some

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We've done countless paranormal investigations. We used to run the

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the public investigations at the Sally House in Atchies in Kansas.

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I don't know if you're familiar. And so that's kind

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of what got me into it. I guess. Before I

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ramble on and talk about everything, all right.

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I'm gonna have to go back a few years.

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Yeah, So I'll go back to college, which was the

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mid nineties, you know, back in the nineteen hundreds, as

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my kids say right.

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To me too, Yeah, yeah, the old days. So I

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started getting interested.

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I was doing some work with Native American communities and

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I was looking specifically at how people get sick, how

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people get well, and what that means in those communities.

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And over a couple of year time period, I did

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a lot of work on herbal medicines and on ceremonial medicine,

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which is of course religion and spirituality and what that

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means and how people get sick within that realm. And

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so that became really interesting to me, and I started

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doing more and more examination of what our spiritual illnesses

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in different cultures and what does what does that look like,

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what does that mean? And over time I just started

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getting asked to hey, you know, you study this, you

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researched this. Can you take a look at this thing

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going on in my house? And so my husband and

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I had been doing this together. We weren't even married

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at the time, and you know, we started going around

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and learning these things and trying to help people and

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figuring things out. So this was, you know, before sort

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of the craze happened in the early two thousands with

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everything on TV. And then of course when all of

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that happened, I started watching all the TV shows and

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I was like, hey, we do that. Wait a second,

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And so over time we just got more and more

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involved in it, and then we had some experiences with

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let's just.

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Say, non human things happening.

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And we both were raised Catholic and moved away from

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the church as we got a little bit older for

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a variety of reasons, and as these things started happening.

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This one particular case sent us back to church. It

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was really it was.

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A dramatic case.

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It was a young woman who walked into the room,

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the temperature lowered twenty degrees. She started telling me things

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that happened to me in high school. I was like,

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you're not You weren't alive when I was in high school.

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And so it was a little weird, and so my

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husband I wound up going back to church. We went

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to a mass at our local Catholic church that we

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had never been to and there was a guest priest there.

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We're like, or whatever, we don't even know who this is.

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And afterwards we went up to him and we said, hey,

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could you just say a blessing over us, like there's

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something we were going on.

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He just went through some stuff.

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Yeah, which other stuff, and so we started talking to

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him and he stopped and he said, you you got

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to come talk to me outside of this, and we said, okay, fine.

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Turns out he was the area's exorcist.

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Wow.

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And so we wound up working with him, and we

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were trained by the Catholic Church for several years and

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wound up doing a lot of that that sort of thing,

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and that really tied in way more with the healing

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that I was very very interested in. And so I

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got more and more into that healing aspect of the paranormal.

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And you know, it's kind of over time just become

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more and more of my life.

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And I'm a little further along in my career.

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And ready to kind of, you know, focus on some

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new things, and I decided to sort of bring together

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my personal life and my professional life see where it goes.

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Absolutely, So, what inspired the creation of Beyond the Human.

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I'll let Ryan answer that, because he's the reason Beyond

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the Human exist.

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Yeah.

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I got to say, it's pretty impressive. You got her

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on a call that's videover Truly, You've done something Vinna

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here that's like magical.

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I'm not cameras.

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So Chris, we I don't know. I mean, we had

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been we had been talking about doing some stuff, Like

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Chris was just saying, you know, we've been talking about

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doing some things that brought together some of these more

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extracurricular in Uh, Chris, I guess we'll call them yeah.

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And definitely is yeah and.

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Are more like official, you know, nine to five. This

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is what we do when we sit down at our

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computers every morning. And I think, you know, Chris did

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a really good job of explaining how naturally it kind

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of falls together. I think because for me it was

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interesting as I moved further through my graduate degrees that

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just how often religion and health and well being came together,

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especially outside of a sort of mainstream American context, like

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we're we're kind of weird here in the States for

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the most part, and that we separate those things out,

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you know. As I you know, did more research and

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studied more and took more grad level classes, it was like,

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oh wow, this is like everywhere else in the world,

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everybody's like, yeah, na, ghosts make people sick and stuff,

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and we don't do that over here, you know, And

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it kind of I don't know, I don't want to

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say it happened organically, but you know, we were just

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kind of spitballing ideas about you know, how we could

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bring those two things together. And I was like, well,

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everybody does a podcast, and true millennial fashion, I was like,

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let's just do a podcast, you know, and I had,

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I had, you know, I had my own podcast with

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a friend of mine, is called Religiously Literate, and the

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goal of that podcast is to talk about religious literacy

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and teach people about different religious traditions and stuff. And

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so I was like, oh, it's easy, you know. I mean,

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it's time consuming, but relatively speaking, you get together, you

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chat about some stuff, and you throw it out into

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the universe and see what happened. Yeah, And so I

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was like, let's just do it. And and then I,

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you know, the more, I mean, she took some convincing.

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It wasn't that easy. Let me let me just say that,

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you know, she wasn't just like, all right, cool, let's

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do it. You know. I think the thing that really

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motivated us, or I think motivated me really a lot,

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was that, you know, there's so much you know, you

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talk to people that do paranormal research, there's so much

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animosity between academics and lay researchers, and most of it

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comes from academics. Will I will completely own that, absolutely

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and I think for us, and but at the same time,

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on this sort of like lay researcher side, there's this

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real interest in like doing legitimate research, yeah, being taken seriously.

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And for both of us we were like, well, we've

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all we've dabbled in all of it, and so we

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were like, you know, that's kind of maybe an interesting

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perspective that we have on it, right as academics who

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do take people who do this stuff seriously. And so

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that was really I think that was the biggest monovator

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for us, was it was like, you know, what, what

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do we have to add to the conversation, because, as

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I'm sure you know, the paranormal podcasting space is huge,

243
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and so it.

244
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Is it is, and so yeah, I don't know if

245
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it's necessarily it's huge, but it's not I don't know

246
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how deep it is.

247
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It's pretty wide, that's a good way to think of it.

248
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But it's not that it's not deep. It's not deep.

249
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Yes, yeah, So Ryan came up with this idea and

250
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and I was like, yeah, you do that, have fun?

251
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Yeah, we run it there, but we got her there.

252
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He started there.

253
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Yeah, and now and now she's on camera.

254
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Yeah, and I mean.

255
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When I said, like I'm coming up with a website,

256
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this is this is the first website. Like, I'm not

257
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on social media, I don't do any of that, and

258
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and it's always been a choice of mine. And so

259
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like Brian's the first person who's it's been able to

260
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convince me to do this kind of thing.

261
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So yeah, I mean, it's one of those things that

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there is a learning curve to its. Well, I mean,

263
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and I think you just get more comfortable with it

264
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right at the end of the day. Yeah, But anthropology, Okay,

265
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it's kind of like I realized a long time ago,

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meaning about twenty about thirty years ago, that I chose

267
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the wrong profession and I should have been an anthropologist.

268
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I say that I don't know that ins and outs

269
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of that meaning.

270
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You never want it to make money, right, because.

271
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Why I don't really make that much money now.

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So at the end of the day, at least it's

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something I'm interested in, so I'll be an amateur anthropologist. So,

274
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but anthropology usually studies culture and religion and human behavior. Right,

275
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So how does anthropology approach something like ghosts and UFOs

276
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and cryptids.

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I'll start with the very first thing. We always think

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is when someone tells you that they have had an

279
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experience and that something is going on in their life

280
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that they've interacted with whatever it is truth because it

281
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happened to them, it's their experience, and nobody else can say, now,

282
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what happened to you didn't happen. I can interpret it differently,

283
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and many people will, but you always start with the

284
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idea that whatever people are telling you.

285
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Is their truth.

286
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And if you start there, you can start immediately having

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a respectful relationship with people, of course, which is I

288
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think somewhat different from other disciplines in academ who sometimes

289
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immediately hear someone say something and say, well, no, that's

290
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mental illness or you know, they make these leaps to things,

291
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and that's I think the first thing that anthropology brings

292
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to the table, right, and you can jump.

293
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In in yeah, yeah, I think. And I think the

294
00:17:03.799 --> 00:17:06.559
next piece of that is, like the next logical step

295
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is we practice what we call it's called cultural relativism

296
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to use the technical term, and really what that means

297
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is so after we've decided that we're just going to

298
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take people at their word and that's their truth, they

299
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lived it. I wasn't there. I can't say anything else

300
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about it. Really, then when we try to understand those experiences,

301
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we start with, Okay, I have to understand the context

302
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in which that happened, and for us that means the

303
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cultural context. So what are you know, what are these

304
00:17:38.640 --> 00:17:42.440
people's spiritual and religious backgrounds? What's their worldview? You know,

305
00:17:42.480 --> 00:17:46.160
I can't I can't really understand someone else's experience from

306
00:17:46.200 --> 00:17:51.839
an anthropological perspective anyway, if I use my own cultural

307
00:17:52.200 --> 00:17:56.480
bias and background as the yardstick to understand or to

308
00:17:56.519 --> 00:17:59.519
measure what they had, what are they experienced? And I

309
00:17:59.519 --> 00:18:02.599
think that's the other piece that like really sets anthropology

310
00:18:02.640 --> 00:18:05.640
apart in most instances, is like we just take people

311
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seriously and then we're like, all right, well, that is

312
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the world they live in, so let's situate that within

313
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their own experience.

314
00:18:13.359 --> 00:18:16.920
Yeah, because one of the other idea questions I have

315
00:18:17.319 --> 00:18:21.279
basically is do you focus more or approach things more

316
00:18:21.920 --> 00:18:27.759
from like the experience themselves, or how like culture interprets

317
00:18:28.319 --> 00:18:30.480
those experiences or both both?

318
00:18:31.119 --> 00:18:31.960
Yeah, a little bit about it.

319
00:18:32.440 --> 00:18:33.559
It's really both.

320
00:18:34.920 --> 00:18:39.680
Because the interpretation piece is it tells you, you know,

321
00:18:39.720 --> 00:18:42.680
when this person, this one person's getting their personal experience,

322
00:18:43.160 --> 00:18:45.839
But how do the people around them think about it. Yeah,

323
00:18:45.880 --> 00:18:49.240
and that can help with the overall interpretation because for

324
00:18:49.279 --> 00:18:52.839
a lot of people, when they have an experience, particularly

325
00:18:52.839 --> 00:18:56.200
a really dramatic experience with the paranormal, it's the first one.

326
00:18:56.240 --> 00:18:59.079
It's the first time that's happening to them, and so

327
00:18:59.160 --> 00:19:01.839
getting that contact to what other people around them think

328
00:19:02.839 --> 00:19:05.039
helps you to see why they're interpreting it the way

329
00:19:05.039 --> 00:19:07.880
that they are, and how they might then deal with

330
00:19:07.920 --> 00:19:10.680
it and move forward from it, because that's always my

331
00:19:10.799 --> 00:19:12.920
angle is like how do you move forward from whatever

332
00:19:12.920 --> 00:19:13.799
that experience is?

333
00:19:14.359 --> 00:19:19.920
Yeah, So what surprised you most once you started looking

334
00:19:20.559 --> 00:19:28.799
at the paranormal supernatural through an anthropological lens?

335
00:19:29.880 --> 00:19:32.480
Okay, I'll go for So, I think the thing that

336
00:19:32.559 --> 00:19:35.039
really struck me and this is I think what really

337
00:19:35.119 --> 00:19:38.480
drew me to anthropology because Shawn's class was just cool

338
00:19:38.480 --> 00:19:41.279
in and of itself, and I don't know of that

339
00:19:41.400 --> 00:19:45.000
many people who took that class and then went on

340
00:19:45.079 --> 00:19:48.839
to get a graduate degree in anthropology, But yeah, I

341
00:19:48.880 --> 00:19:52.480
think I might. I may be the one, So I

342
00:19:52.519 --> 00:19:57.079
may be the idiot. I think the thing that struck

343
00:19:57.119 --> 00:19:59.839
me the most is when when we look at all

344
00:19:59.839 --> 00:20:05.319
this stuff cross culturally, it's everywhere. Yeah, you know, and

345
00:20:05.599 --> 00:20:10.640
I think it's it's really it's really hard to discount

346
00:20:10.640 --> 00:20:14.720
it when if you look across the world at people

347
00:20:14.759 --> 00:20:20.480
who've never interacted with one another in any way and

348
00:20:20.960 --> 00:20:26.319
before before Yeah, yeah, exactly, you know, and they have

349
00:20:26.440 --> 00:20:29.559
experiences that are you know, they may call it something different,

350
00:20:29.640 --> 00:20:34.039
but you can see the similarities between what they describe

351
00:20:34.519 --> 00:20:38.200
happening to them that we label as paranormal. And I

352
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think that's the piece that always that's what keeps me curious,

353
00:20:41.839 --> 00:20:43.720
is it's like, Okay, there's something to this stuff if

354
00:20:43.720 --> 00:20:45.200
everybody's experiencing it.

355
00:20:47.720 --> 00:20:48.359
Yeah.

356
00:20:48.440 --> 00:20:52.039
Yeah. I think for me, what was a little a

357
00:20:52.039 --> 00:20:54.759
little shocking to me, and this is not about the

358
00:20:54.759 --> 00:20:59.960
paranormal itself, but more the way academics look at the paranormal.

359
00:21:00.519 --> 00:21:04.680
What was surprising to me was how fringe.

360
00:21:04.319 --> 00:21:10.079
I got labeled really quick, Yeah, so fast, Like oh

361
00:21:10.160 --> 00:21:14.240
you think about that's like I mentioned, you know, yeah,

362
00:21:14.240 --> 00:21:17.279
and it's like, how did that happen? I mean, I'm

363
00:21:18.359 --> 00:21:22.319
I'm a methodologist by training, so like I'm the methods person.

364
00:21:22.319 --> 00:21:25.319
I'm telling you how to do your research, like and

365
00:21:25.400 --> 00:21:27.119
it was so shocking.

366
00:21:26.759 --> 00:21:30.160
To me because I was always not the fringy person

367
00:21:30.200 --> 00:21:34.160
in the room with what I was doing academically, And suddenly,

368
00:21:34.200 --> 00:21:36.279
as soon as I said I had these other interests,

369
00:21:36.319 --> 00:21:38.079
it was like, what happened to you?

370
00:21:38.079 --> 00:21:38.759
You're crazy?

371
00:21:38.880 --> 00:21:39.160
Like what?

372
00:21:39.759 --> 00:21:43.720
And it's this immediate discounting anything you have to say

373
00:21:43.759 --> 00:21:47.400
as an academic. And I watch it happen to other academics.

374
00:21:47.400 --> 00:21:50.319
Whenever you get interested in this stuff. Unless you were

375
00:21:50.480 --> 00:21:54.799
there to say, let's look at these crazy people, you

376
00:21:54.839 --> 00:21:56.119
are labeled.

377
00:21:55.759 --> 00:22:01.440
As this fringy, weird researcher. And I did expect that

378
00:22:01.519 --> 00:22:03.519
to happen quite as quickly as it did.

379
00:22:04.039 --> 00:22:09.720
Yeah, considering you have this base right of of work, yeah,

380
00:22:09.799 --> 00:22:11.279
before this is even the thing.

381
00:22:12.400 --> 00:22:13.279
Yeah yeah.

382
00:22:13.279 --> 00:22:15.720
And I think the thing that strikes me particularly about

383
00:22:15.720 --> 00:22:18.799
that is like, you know, I love anthropology as a discipline.

384
00:22:18.799 --> 00:22:22.359
I proudly claim that I'm an anthropologist, but even in

385
00:22:22.400 --> 00:22:25.039
anthropology it's you know, Chris and I just laid out

386
00:22:25.079 --> 00:22:29.200
like our perspectives really, like the the bedrock of the

387
00:22:29.240 --> 00:22:32.039
way that we approach understanding the world really lends itself

388
00:22:32.039 --> 00:22:37.559
to talking about this stuff. But even given that, in anthropology,

389
00:22:38.200 --> 00:22:41.160
you get kind of, you know, kind of pushed to

390
00:22:41.200 --> 00:22:43.920
the edges. You know, you don't get totally thrown out

391
00:22:43.960 --> 00:22:46.960
like you do in other disciplines, right because I think

392
00:22:47.039 --> 00:22:49.279
we get away with talking about a lot of weird

393
00:22:49.319 --> 00:22:52.839
stuff just because we're anthropologists and if humans are doing it,

394
00:22:52.839 --> 00:22:56.799
we're down right, you know, we end up you know,

395
00:22:57.359 --> 00:22:59.799
when you start to when it when people catch wind

396
00:23:00.119 --> 00:23:02.599
of like in the in the discipline, we call it

397
00:23:02.680 --> 00:23:05.839
going native. So it's the idea that you know, you

398
00:23:06.720 --> 00:23:09.680
are starting to believe the things that the people in

399
00:23:09.759 --> 00:23:13.039
the community are working with, you know, say or do, right,

400
00:23:13.920 --> 00:23:17.160
and if you start to get too close to that line,

401
00:23:17.279 --> 00:23:19.839
then people start to get a little get a little

402
00:23:19.839 --> 00:23:23.160
squirrely with you and I and and it's disappointing from

403
00:23:23.279 --> 00:23:26.799
you know, a disciplinary perspective, but it's I think it's

404
00:23:26.920 --> 00:23:30.200
rampant and academ and it just that's how it manifests

405
00:23:30.519 --> 00:23:31.559
an anthrow for sure.

406
00:23:32.079 --> 00:23:35.480
Yeah, Unfortunately, I feel like there's just I mean, we

407
00:23:35.640 --> 00:23:38.400
deal with and you guys, so I'm gonna ask, like,

408
00:23:38.759 --> 00:23:43.599
you're dealing with cultures that interpret paranormal events in ways

409
00:23:43.680 --> 00:23:51.079
that just Western culture can't handle, right, completely misunderstood. So

410
00:23:51.359 --> 00:23:54.400
could you give me some examples of maybe that, like

411
00:23:54.480 --> 00:23:58.880
with so other cultures that you've dealt with and their

412
00:23:59.640 --> 00:24:07.559
every day paranormal events that just are completely misunderstood.

413
00:24:09.920 --> 00:24:11.319
Let's think of some examples.

414
00:24:11.440 --> 00:24:12.720
I know, yeah, I know, I'm trying to think of

415
00:24:12.759 --> 00:24:14.920
like a couple of good, really good examples because I

416
00:24:14.960 --> 00:24:15.799
can think of like one hundred.

417
00:24:15.839 --> 00:24:19.319
But yeah, okay, so let's Navajo skinwalkers.

418
00:24:19.599 --> 00:24:22.079
Oh yeah, well that's actually where I was kind of

419
00:24:22.079 --> 00:24:25.799
going because I just interviewed two guys that are that

420
00:24:25.839 --> 00:24:29.480
are Navajo, uh, and that just the stories are amazing.

421
00:24:30.000 --> 00:24:30.319
Yeah.

422
00:24:30.400 --> 00:24:35.640
So, you know, Navajo skinwalkers are not necessarily the same

423
00:24:35.720 --> 00:24:37.920
thing as what people talk about when they say the

424
00:24:38.000 --> 00:24:45.240
term skin walker. Navo skinwalkers are witches who transform into animals,

425
00:24:45.680 --> 00:24:47.240
and it's.

426
00:24:47.079 --> 00:24:50.079
Not necessarily one particular type of animal.

427
00:24:50.119 --> 00:24:52.720
There are some that are more common than others, wolves, coyotes,

428
00:24:53.200 --> 00:24:53.720
somem others.

429
00:24:55.839 --> 00:24:57.839
But to get to that place, it's it's a very

430
00:24:58.079 --> 00:24:59.359
dark experience.

431
00:24:59.559 --> 00:25:03.119
To get to the point of being a skin walker,

432
00:25:04.359 --> 00:25:07.039
you have to go against certain taboos in the culture

433
00:25:07.160 --> 00:25:10.039
and without get it, going too far down that rabbit hole.

434
00:25:11.039 --> 00:25:14.640
You know, incest and necrophilia are part of this.

435
00:25:17.039 --> 00:25:17.960
These are not you.

436
00:25:17.920 --> 00:25:20.920
Know, like things like you know, happy topics is I mean,

437
00:25:20.920 --> 00:25:22.960
this is a very dark thing that happens to people

438
00:25:23.960 --> 00:25:26.599
and they become skin walkers. And when you talk to

439
00:25:26.839 --> 00:25:30.039
many Navajo people, I mean, I've heard so many stories.

440
00:25:30.039 --> 00:25:31.400
And I did a lot of work in the Southwest,

441
00:25:31.440 --> 00:25:35.880
That's why I kind of go there immediately. But you

442
00:25:35.920 --> 00:25:37.799
hear a lot of stories from people saying, well, yes,

443
00:25:37.880 --> 00:25:43.519
I saw a person transform, you know, and to a

444
00:25:43.559 --> 00:25:46.440
Western person, we're sitting there saying, well, you don't really

445
00:25:46.519 --> 00:25:50.559
mean that a person became an animal, like you mean

446
00:25:50.599 --> 00:25:53.960
they put like a skin over them, or no, they

447
00:25:54.039 --> 00:25:56.720
mean they saw a person transform. And and when you

448
00:25:56.759 --> 00:26:00.799
talk to people about that, you know, they're very clear, like, no,

449
00:26:01.039 --> 00:26:04.400
this is what I saw. Now, I've never talked to

450
00:26:04.440 --> 00:26:08.400
someone who claimed themselves to be a skin walker, but

451
00:26:08.680 --> 00:26:11.839
many people who talk about skin walkers who are out there,

452
00:26:11.960 --> 00:26:14.319
and you know, these are bad people who are doing

453
00:26:14.400 --> 00:26:19.440
bad things, and and they actually become animals. And again,

454
00:26:19.480 --> 00:26:22.319
in Western culture, we just we can't accept that. Yes,

455
00:26:22.519 --> 00:26:24.839
you know, we think of whrewolves when we go to Hollywood.

456
00:26:24.400 --> 00:26:32.400
Movies as a register, right, anything else. I mean, that's

457
00:26:32.400 --> 00:26:33.119
a great example.

458
00:26:33.200 --> 00:26:34.519
I can think of a I can think of a

459
00:26:34.559 --> 00:26:38.279
really non paranormal example actually that I think is also good,

460
00:26:38.920 --> 00:26:40.640
you know. So I did a lot of work during

461
00:26:40.720 --> 00:26:42.920
my masters up in the Northern Plains in a couple

462
00:26:42.960 --> 00:26:47.200
Lakota communities, and one of the things that's really at

463
00:26:47.240 --> 00:26:53.039
like the core of Lakota belief is this idea that

464
00:26:53.079 --> 00:26:57.400
they emerged from wind Cave, from an underworld onto this world.

465
00:26:57.440 --> 00:27:00.039
And so when Cave, if folks don't know, is a

466
00:27:00.559 --> 00:27:03.319
site in the Black Hills in South Dakota, you should

467
00:27:03.319 --> 00:27:07.240
go there. It's super cool and it's literally a place

468
00:27:07.240 --> 00:27:08.640
you can go. I've stood right next to the whole

469
00:27:09.720 --> 00:27:15.799
And part of that belief is that not only is

470
00:27:15.839 --> 00:27:20.680
there an underworld underneath this world that Lakota contemporary La

471
00:27:20.680 --> 00:27:25.200
Cota people's ancestors emerged from, but that before they themselves emerged,

472
00:27:26.720 --> 00:27:33.000
other humans emerged that weren't prepared to live in a

473
00:27:33.039 --> 00:27:35.440
South Dakota winter, which if you've ever been to South

474
00:27:35.519 --> 00:27:38.960
Dakota in the wintertime, it's miserable because winter is like

475
00:27:39.039 --> 00:27:42.920
from September to April, so it's just cold and snowy

476
00:27:43.000 --> 00:27:48.680
and gross. And so they were turned into by by creator,

477
00:27:49.039 --> 00:27:56.039
into buffalo or bison. And when humans emerged finally emerged

478
00:27:56.039 --> 00:28:00.599
onto this earth as we know it, they were instructed

479
00:28:00.599 --> 00:28:03.960
by their creator that they were supposed to follow those

480
00:28:03.960 --> 00:28:07.759
buffalo because they are their brothers, and they follow them

481
00:28:07.920 --> 00:28:12.240
and they're there to sustain them as a people. And

482
00:28:12.319 --> 00:28:16.279
so that relationship, I think for a lot of people

483
00:28:17.160 --> 00:28:19.720
is I think taken really for granted, people just associate

484
00:28:19.759 --> 00:28:21.880
Indians with buffalo and just like leave it at that.

485
00:28:22.400 --> 00:28:26.200
But it's a lot more. There's a lot more I

486
00:28:26.200 --> 00:28:28.240
guess nuance to it, right, There's a lot more meaning

487
00:28:28.319 --> 00:28:30.559
behind it for Lakota people. You know, it's not just

488
00:28:31.279 --> 00:28:34.000
you know that because people talk about how buffalo were

489
00:28:34.000 --> 00:28:36.559
like the supermarket of the planes or whatever they call it, right,

490
00:28:37.599 --> 00:28:42.279
but that relationship between between Lakota people and other people

491
00:28:42.319 --> 00:28:45.039
on the northern plains with buffalo is for a lot

492
00:28:45.079 --> 00:28:48.079
of them a kin relationship, you know, and so they

493
00:28:48.119 --> 00:28:51.240
think of themselves as related to them in a way

494
00:28:51.240 --> 00:28:54.759
that Western science really doesn't and has a hard time,

495
00:28:54.839 --> 00:28:57.599
like doing the mental gymnastics to really understand.

496
00:28:58.079 --> 00:29:00.359
Yeah, there's like a spiritual based off all that.

497
00:29:00.519 --> 00:29:03.160
Yeah, as opposed to you know, Western science, we automatically

498
00:29:03.240 --> 00:29:05.480
kind of go towards genetics.

499
00:29:04.920 --> 00:29:09.079
And like, yeah, you know, they're not the same, So

500
00:29:09.279 --> 00:29:12.400
they're not relating no, right, right.

501
00:29:13.960 --> 00:29:18.200
So I mean we have I just I actually wrote

502
00:29:18.240 --> 00:29:21.400
a book not that long ago that talks about the

503
00:29:21.839 --> 00:29:24.920
like a lot of these archetypes, right, that go across

504
00:29:24.960 --> 00:29:32.480
cultures and whatnot, and people just report very similar experiences,

505
00:29:32.559 --> 00:29:37.759
not just paranormal, but supernatural, cryptid all that. What what

506
00:29:38.039 --> 00:29:46.519
is that? Especially when the pattern crosses unrelated populations, cultures, geography.

507
00:29:47.319 --> 00:29:51.240
What is going on there?

508
00:29:50.880 --> 00:29:55.039
And I think some things are just cultural universals, which

509
00:29:55.119 --> 00:30:00.000
is a bad word sometimes in anthropology, but you know,

510
00:30:00.119 --> 00:30:03.440
I look at things and if you look at at

511
00:30:03.519 --> 00:30:06.920
just beliefs surrounding paranormal, there are certain things that we

512
00:30:06.960 --> 00:30:09.880
see everywhere. I mean, if you put salt down, it's

513
00:30:09.880 --> 00:30:16.680
a it's a block for spirits. The evil eye is everywhere,

514
00:30:16.720 --> 00:30:18.759
and it is very real. I mean this comes from

515
00:30:19.359 --> 00:30:21.400
you know, my my mom's side of the family, Sicilian

516
00:30:21.480 --> 00:30:23.240
and evil eye is very real.

517
00:30:24.599 --> 00:30:28.640
Yeah, And that's and that's not specific to Sicilians. That's

518
00:30:28.640 --> 00:30:29.440
just how I learned it.

519
00:30:29.480 --> 00:30:33.119
But I mean it's all over the place, you know,

520
00:30:33.319 --> 00:30:38.519
using various types of incense and smoke to carry you know,

521
00:30:38.519 --> 00:30:41.039
it's either rid a house of negative energy, or to

522
00:30:41.079 --> 00:30:44.119
carry prayers to Creator. I mean, it's very spiritual smoke

523
00:30:44.240 --> 00:30:46.480
for some reason, and it's completely cross cultural.

524
00:30:46.839 --> 00:30:48.440
And so I think there are just things.

525
00:30:48.200 --> 00:30:52.319
That that are simply true, and people come to them

526
00:30:52.319 --> 00:30:55.400
in different ways. You know, they come to that knowledge

527
00:30:55.400 --> 00:30:58.720
in different ways. Whether that knowledge came from, you know,

528
00:30:59.559 --> 00:31:03.000
a creator that they believe in, or it came from

529
00:31:03.240 --> 00:31:06.160
you know, watching nature, or you know, there's different ways

530
00:31:06.160 --> 00:31:08.400
people get that knowledge. But it does seem to be

531
00:31:08.440 --> 00:31:09.359
knowledge that is.

532
00:31:11.119 --> 00:31:12.079
Nearly universal.

533
00:31:13.759 --> 00:31:17.799
Yeah, yeah, those.

534
00:31:16.519 --> 00:31:18.960
Protection type things, but you know there's more.

535
00:31:20.440 --> 00:31:23.000
Yeah, there's a full course. And historian his name is

536
00:31:23.079 --> 00:31:24.960
David Hughford. He wrote a book called The Terror That

537
00:31:25.000 --> 00:31:28.960
Comes at Night and it's basically it's it's called what

538
00:31:28.960 --> 00:31:32.640
what people call it as the experiential source hypothesis. And

539
00:31:32.720 --> 00:31:36.039
so what this basically is is he goes and studies

540
00:31:37.279 --> 00:31:40.400
essentially it's cases of I think what we would call

541
00:31:40.519 --> 00:31:43.279
sleep paralysis really and like the idea of like the

542
00:31:43.519 --> 00:31:46.920
like the shadow people that people shadow people and stuff

543
00:31:46.960 --> 00:31:49.079
like that. And he goes and studies this I forget

544
00:31:49.079 --> 00:31:55.079
where exactly, somewhere in Northern Europe, and he basically is

545
00:31:55.119 --> 00:31:59.480
trying to question the idea the cultural source hypothesis, which

546
00:31:59.519 --> 00:32:01.880
is the kind of antithesis of this, which argues that

547
00:32:02.480 --> 00:32:08.160
basically all of our paranormal experiences are filtered through a

548
00:32:08.200 --> 00:32:12.000
cultural lens, and so we just explain the weird stuff

549
00:32:12.000 --> 00:32:14.920
that happens to us in a way that makes sense

550
00:32:15.039 --> 00:32:19.119
within our cultural milieu. Right, But that doesn't really work

551
00:32:19.160 --> 00:32:21.599
because for like we've been saying, you know, you look

552
00:32:21.599 --> 00:32:26.839
across culturally, people are having the same experiences and describing

553
00:32:26.880 --> 00:32:30.920
them in maybe somewhat different ways. And so his whole

554
00:32:30.960 --> 00:32:32.960
research is on the way on the idea that like

555
00:32:33.680 --> 00:32:37.519
the experience itself is actually real and it is happening,

556
00:32:37.839 --> 00:32:41.519
and that's the source through which we understand or that

557
00:32:41.599 --> 00:32:45.000
we you know, get these ideas about the paranormal. And

558
00:32:45.079 --> 00:32:48.240
so that's kind of where I fall is that you know,

559
00:32:48.279 --> 00:32:51.799
these experiences are things that are actually happening, and we

560
00:32:51.960 --> 00:32:54.880
just don't have a way of really explaining them well,

561
00:32:55.000 --> 00:32:57.160
or Western science, I guess doesn't have a way of

562
00:32:57.160 --> 00:32:59.200
explaining them all. Because that's the other thing is like

563
00:32:59.200 --> 00:33:01.960
if you look cross culturally, like the Lakota folks I

564
00:33:02.000 --> 00:33:04.240
hang out with, they can explain to me exactly how

565
00:33:04.279 --> 00:33:06.440
this stuff works. They have a system that you know,

566
00:33:06.519 --> 00:33:10.319
explains where these types of spirits exist in their kind

567
00:33:10.359 --> 00:33:13.200
of spiritual hierarchy, if we want to call it that.

568
00:33:13.759 --> 00:33:15.880
And that's true, like all over the place, everybody's got

569
00:33:15.880 --> 00:33:18.680
an explanation for except for Western science really.

570
00:33:19.599 --> 00:33:26.400
Right, Yeah, it's the the the supernatural or spiritual realm

571
00:33:26.559 --> 00:33:30.839
doesn't really exist to a lot of folks in Western society.

572
00:33:31.359 --> 00:33:35.000
It just doesn't. I think it does, but it's just such.

573
00:33:34.799 --> 00:33:40.680
A foreign concept. It's been I want to say, bred

574
00:33:40.720 --> 00:33:45.119
out of us kind of, but it has, and sometimes

575
00:33:45.119 --> 00:33:48.160
it's unfortunate, but you know, it's it's a definitely different

576
00:33:48.160 --> 00:33:52.359
way of looking at the world for sure. So but

577
00:33:53.160 --> 00:33:56.960
I want to dive right in to you guys talking

578
00:33:57.000 --> 00:34:00.680
about your anomalies research project.

579
00:34:02.480 --> 00:34:03.240
Yeah, so.

580
00:34:04.720 --> 00:34:08.159
We decided, when did we start this, since we started

581
00:34:08.159 --> 00:34:12.719
talking about it last summer, that we should really, you know,

582
00:34:12.840 --> 00:34:16.760
do some real research in this area in terms of

583
00:34:16.800 --> 00:34:19.840
like more real academic research, I should say, because we've

584
00:34:19.840 --> 00:34:22.119
been doing our own research for a long time.

585
00:34:22.159 --> 00:34:23.840
But you know, we were.

586
00:34:23.760 --> 00:34:30.320
Interested in how other people, non academics, think about the paranormal,

587
00:34:30.480 --> 00:34:33.920
experience the paranormal, and believe in different things.

588
00:34:34.480 --> 00:34:34.920
And so.

589
00:34:36.920 --> 00:34:41.320
We decided to to really dive into this, into a

590
00:34:41.679 --> 00:34:43.280
what's called a mixed method study.

591
00:34:43.320 --> 00:34:46.639
I'm become a methodologist from here, which means that we have.

592
00:34:48.880 --> 00:34:51.000
No I have only put that on sometimes, So it

593
00:34:51.039 --> 00:34:54.440
means we have numbers and words essentially. So we have

594
00:34:54.480 --> 00:34:57.239
survey data which we can analyze and do all kinds

595
00:34:57.239 --> 00:34:58.559
of statistics.

596
00:34:58.000 --> 00:34:59.559
On to make those folks happy.

597
00:35:00.400 --> 00:35:02.360
And then we also have interview data where we can

598
00:35:02.360 --> 00:35:06.159
delve into things in more detail. So the Anomalies Project

599
00:35:06.239 --> 00:35:08.960
starts with a survey and we ask people to come

600
00:35:09.000 --> 00:35:11.119
in and fill out this survey, and it asks you

601
00:35:11.199 --> 00:35:13.719
questions on a lot of different topics, I mean kind

602
00:35:13.760 --> 00:35:17.159
of all of the different paranormal stuff that's out there,

603
00:35:17.280 --> 00:35:22.400
as well as questions about your spirituality, your religiosity. We

604
00:35:22.440 --> 00:35:24.960
ask questions about mental health, and not because we want

605
00:35:25.000 --> 00:35:27.920
to say anyone's crazy, but because we want people to

606
00:35:29.000 --> 00:35:33.440
see that these are not crazy folks. Yeah, you know,

607
00:35:33.559 --> 00:35:37.119
not everybody who believes in the paranormal and has had

608
00:35:37.159 --> 00:35:41.840
those experiences has a mental health issue. And maybe they do,

609
00:35:41.920 --> 00:35:44.440
but it's it's probably not related like or if it is,

610
00:35:44.440 --> 00:35:46.760
it's probably because they've had really bad experiences and it

611
00:35:46.800 --> 00:35:48.199
has that's damaging to you.

612
00:35:50.039 --> 00:35:51.760
So we do ask some of those questions.

613
00:35:52.159 --> 00:35:55.639
We also ask about beliefs and experiences surrounding death.

614
00:35:56.679 --> 00:35:58.679
So we go down a lot of different roads.

615
00:35:58.880 --> 00:36:03.440
Then from there you flag into either follow up surveys

616
00:36:03.559 --> 00:36:08.119
or interviews, and so if you've had experiences such as

617
00:36:08.239 --> 00:36:15.199
alien abduction, demonic possession, near death experiences, or spontaneous human combustion,

618
00:36:15.519 --> 00:36:19.159
we want to talk to you immediately. Then we have

619
00:36:19.239 --> 00:36:23.079
a series of surveys that are follow ups, and that's

620
00:36:23.119 --> 00:36:27.440
on experiences with aliens, experiences and beliefs with aliens, cryptids, ghosts,

621
00:36:27.440 --> 00:36:29.719
and psychic phenomena. And each of those also has a

622
00:36:29.719 --> 00:36:33.360
follow up interview if people you know, have strong experiences

623
00:36:33.440 --> 00:36:34.480
or beliefs in those areas.

624
00:36:34.800 --> 00:36:35.320
So it's a.

625
00:36:35.239 --> 00:36:39.159
Big study and our hope is to get as many

626
00:36:39.159 --> 00:36:42.960
people into it globally. Right now, it's only available in English,

627
00:36:43.000 --> 00:36:46.679
but we do plan to do some translating, but then

628
00:36:46.840 --> 00:36:49.159
have it be what's called a longitudinal study where we

629
00:36:49.199 --> 00:36:52.239
will reach out to people annually to sort of update

630
00:36:52.280 --> 00:36:54.519
all of this, and so then we'll be able to

631
00:36:54.639 --> 00:36:58.679
look at changes in beliefs over time, hopefully based on

632
00:36:58.840 --> 00:37:01.599
different experiences and things that people have had, and then

633
00:37:01.639 --> 00:37:05.639
we can, you know, show how this might work together

634
00:37:06.079 --> 00:37:09.159
and how someone might have certain ideas about cryptids that

635
00:37:09.199 --> 00:37:13.199
are actually influenced by their ideas about aliens, and how

636
00:37:13.239 --> 00:37:15.960
there might be ties between those two or things like that.

637
00:37:17.679 --> 00:37:19.199
That's kind of it in a nutshell, Ryan, do you

638
00:37:19.199 --> 00:37:20.039
want to conciliator?

639
00:37:21.840 --> 00:37:24.599
I think. I think the thing that really motivated us

640
00:37:24.719 --> 00:37:26.639
to do this is that, you know, there are not

641
00:37:27.480 --> 00:37:35.159
a lot of academic studies done on just experiences and beliefs,

642
00:37:35.199 --> 00:37:38.159
Like I think, there's some of experiences, there's some of beliefs,

643
00:37:38.199 --> 00:37:40.679
and there's not as many that are as sort of

644
00:37:40.719 --> 00:37:44.480
all encompassing as this project aims to be. You know,

645
00:37:44.559 --> 00:37:47.960
you've got things like Simon Jung's Fairy Senses, and that's

646
00:37:48.039 --> 00:37:51.719
really you know, focused on you know, people's experiences with

647
00:37:51.880 --> 00:37:54.679
elemental entities I think, and specifically in the UK for

648
00:37:54.719 --> 00:37:59.360
the most part, and we really wanted to have something

649
00:37:59.400 --> 00:38:01.199
where we could do exactly what Chris was just saying,

650
00:38:01.239 --> 00:38:04.920
you know, understand relationships between people's beliefs because you talk

651
00:38:04.960 --> 00:38:07.360
to folks who are into the paranormal, and most folks

652
00:38:07.360 --> 00:38:09.280
are into all a lot of it. You know, you

653
00:38:09.320 --> 00:38:12.480
may find like one weirdo who's like, oh yeah, I

654
00:38:12.559 --> 00:38:16.440
only do ghosts everything else is too much, Yeah right.

655
00:38:16.880 --> 00:38:20.719
A few and part of it, Yeah, yeah, exactly right,

656
00:38:21.119 --> 00:38:23.360
and so and so I think, you know, one of

657
00:38:23.360 --> 00:38:25.320
the things we really wanted to do was be able

658
00:38:25.400 --> 00:38:28.280
to understand those things and also.

659
00:38:29.719 --> 00:38:32.360
You know, just be open to all of the experiences

660
00:38:32.400 --> 00:38:35.760
that people claim they have and and what I think

661
00:38:35.800 --> 00:38:37.960
the thing that's most interesting in the project for me,

662
00:38:38.039 --> 00:38:40.199
I think the most interesting set of questions is like

663
00:38:40.280 --> 00:38:43.199
right at the beginning, we ask where people have learned

664
00:38:43.199 --> 00:38:47.119
about this stuff, and we kind of give lots of

665
00:38:47.119 --> 00:38:51.360
different options from you know, TV to films to books

666
00:38:51.440 --> 00:38:54.960
to people they know spiritual leaders. It's like twelve or

667
00:38:55.000 --> 00:38:55.639
some options.

668
00:38:55.679 --> 00:38:56.239
It's crazy.

669
00:38:56.920 --> 00:38:59.599
And that I think is really interesting to me because

670
00:39:00.559 --> 00:39:03.159
we've done a similar project with or we had some

671
00:39:03.920 --> 00:39:06.679
we had some similar surveys that we did with Native

672
00:39:06.719 --> 00:39:10.239
folks not that long ago, and one of the really

673
00:39:10.239 --> 00:39:12.599
interesting things that came out of that is where people

674
00:39:12.599 --> 00:39:16.199
are learning about these sort of phenomena, you know, and

675
00:39:16.599 --> 00:39:17.760
a lot of the folks that we talk to the

676
00:39:17.840 --> 00:39:20.599
Native community, I think the total it was like north

677
00:39:20.639 --> 00:39:25.639
of sixty percent. We're learning from someone in their own community,

678
00:39:25.679 --> 00:39:28.719
whether that's a spiritual leader or a friend or a

679
00:39:28.760 --> 00:39:33.159
family member or something like that. And I think those differences,

680
00:39:33.360 --> 00:39:36.400
understanding those differences is really interesting to see, you know,

681
00:39:36.760 --> 00:39:38.800
different groups of folks. Where are they learning about this stuff?

682
00:39:38.880 --> 00:39:41.519
Is you know, are certain groups you know, just learning

683
00:39:41.519 --> 00:39:45.159
about it from television? Are certain people like really going

684
00:39:45.159 --> 00:39:48.280
out and investigating certain things for themselves? And I think

685
00:39:48.320 --> 00:39:50.440
those relationships are interesting mostly to me.

686
00:39:50.679 --> 00:39:56.719
I guess, Yeah, what kind of experiences are people reporting?

687
00:39:58.400 --> 00:40:03.320
Just like the most so far, there's a lot of

688
00:40:03.400 --> 00:40:05.119
psychic phenomena.

689
00:40:05.079 --> 00:40:07.800
Yeah, that was more popular and more. Yeah.

690
00:40:08.079 --> 00:40:11.880
Yeah, people have experienced you know, esp or you know,

691
00:40:12.480 --> 00:40:14.360
different different types of psychic phenomena.

692
00:40:14.400 --> 00:40:19.159
I think that's been the most. So there's also a

693
00:40:19.159 --> 00:40:23.400
lot of I'm gonna call them ghost type things.

694
00:40:23.519 --> 00:40:26.920
Yeah, you know, kind of the when you think of

695
00:40:27.000 --> 00:40:30.519
Haunting's kind of this more standard sort of you know,

696
00:40:30.760 --> 00:40:33.079
I've had something touch me, I've had you know, the

697
00:40:33.119 --> 00:40:36.320
experiences people have like that I think are pretty common too.

698
00:40:37.519 --> 00:40:42.320
I was surprised not to see as many experiences surrounding cryptos.

699
00:40:43.000 --> 00:40:45.039
I expected to see more of that.

700
00:40:45.079 --> 00:40:49.280
I think you'll I think you'll see a uptick. I'm

701
00:40:49.320 --> 00:40:49.760
just saying.

702
00:40:50.159 --> 00:40:53.960
I'm just saying because that's kind of my wheelhouse. So

703
00:40:54.239 --> 00:40:57.920
I mean my wheelhouse is a lot wider than that,

704
00:40:58.000 --> 00:41:01.079
but that's where I really sit, like in the pocket.

705
00:41:01.599 --> 00:41:04.639
It all started there. So I have a lot of

706
00:41:04.639 --> 00:41:07.280
folks and a whole lot of them are not that

707
00:41:07.400 --> 00:41:10.480
far from you. Hey, all right, So so you might

708
00:41:10.519 --> 00:41:13.440
be able to do I don't. I mean, I'm just saying, yeah, yeah,

709
00:41:13.440 --> 00:41:14.119
that I would.

710
00:41:14.280 --> 00:41:17.000
And we've seen a decent amount of ali and stuff,

711
00:41:17.000 --> 00:41:18.920
but mostly like oh I saw something in the sky.

712
00:41:19.360 --> 00:41:20.719
Yeah, only a couple.

713
00:41:20.800 --> 00:41:24.360
We've had a couple of abduction stories, a couple of

714
00:41:24.599 --> 00:41:25.840
possession stories.

715
00:41:26.920 --> 00:41:27.760
We've got a few.

716
00:41:27.800 --> 00:41:30.679
NDEs near death experiences, which I'm really interested in your

717
00:41:30.719 --> 00:41:31.760
death experiences, and.

718
00:41:33.320 --> 00:41:34.880
So that's why we're really we have that. Yeah.

719
00:41:34.880 --> 00:41:38.199
They are pretty cool, I mean, like just cool stories. Yeah,

720
00:41:38.239 --> 00:41:41.480
because it gives you a glimpse possibly behind the curtain

721
00:41:42.000 --> 00:41:44.559
that you know, it's pretty neat.

722
00:41:45.079 --> 00:41:45.559
Yeah.

723
00:41:45.920 --> 00:41:48.440
I've seen a definite uptick like of people that talk

724
00:41:48.519 --> 00:41:53.239
to me and psychic experiences like like you're saying, and

725
00:41:53.320 --> 00:41:58.960
shadow people, like there's something going on there. And that's

726
00:41:59.000 --> 00:42:02.679
been within the last two years or so. It's been

727
00:42:02.679 --> 00:42:09.079
a real big uptick. Yeah, Okay, so interesting, Yeah, which

728
00:42:09.159 --> 00:42:11.639
which kind of go hand in hand with the sleep paralysis,

729
00:42:11.679 --> 00:42:13.039
like Ryan earlier.

730
00:42:13.079 --> 00:42:16.840
So yeah, yeah, sleep paralysis I find really fascinating.

731
00:42:17.280 --> 00:42:18.920
And again I'm in that.

732
00:42:18.880 --> 00:42:22.679
Sort of more medical realm, and there are big differences

733
00:42:22.719 --> 00:42:26.199
between what I know to be sleep paralysis, that is

734
00:42:26.480 --> 00:42:29.440
a biological thing that's happening, and when people have an

735
00:42:29.519 --> 00:42:34.519
encounter with a non human entity. There are definite differences, definitely,

736
00:42:34.599 --> 00:42:38.280
and I'm interested in really looking into that in more

737
00:42:38.320 --> 00:42:41.760
detail to kind of showcase those differences.

738
00:42:42.280 --> 00:42:44.920
Yeah, I have a pretty good one that it affected

739
00:42:44.920 --> 00:42:45.840
my health for years.

740
00:42:46.360 --> 00:42:49.639
Yeah, and it does, they absolutely.

741
00:42:50.760 --> 00:42:52.519
So, yeah, just wild.

742
00:42:53.800 --> 00:42:59.760
So I want to get a more personal side of

743
00:42:59.840 --> 00:43:03.440
like maybe experiences that you would like to share that

744
00:43:04.079 --> 00:43:07.239
you've had on your own. It can be about anything,

745
00:43:08.480 --> 00:43:12.320
but something just dabbling in there that things you've seen

746
00:43:12.400 --> 00:43:14.679
are things you've experienced yourself.

747
00:43:20.239 --> 00:43:20.480
Trying.

748
00:43:20.519 --> 00:43:22.199
You want to start with your Waiverley story.

749
00:43:22.559 --> 00:43:26.199
Oh yeah, I can do that one. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

750
00:43:26.280 --> 00:43:31.960
So let's see that was like probably two thousand and thirteen,

751
00:43:32.440 --> 00:43:36.480
fourteen somewhere in there. We were we were with a

752
00:43:36.519 --> 00:43:39.679
group of showing students, So we really got to get

753
00:43:39.679 --> 00:43:42.599
that guy on this podcast. He's a harder nut to

754
00:43:42.639 --> 00:43:48.440
crack than Christ just before. Yes, just not art, which

755
00:43:48.440 --> 00:43:52.199
is like let's talk about yeah. But anyway, So one

756
00:43:52.239 --> 00:43:55.519
of the things about Staunt's class is the thing that

757
00:43:55.599 --> 00:43:56.960
was cool about it was you didn't just sit in

758
00:43:56.960 --> 00:43:59.920
the classroom and learn about cross cultural belief and paranormal

759
00:44:00.039 --> 00:44:01.679
He was like, yeah, we're gonna go drive up to

760
00:44:01.679 --> 00:44:06.559
Abison and investigate the Sally House. And one year we

761
00:44:06.599 --> 00:44:08.920
got uh, we had worked it out that we were

762
00:44:08.920 --> 00:44:13.239
gonna go to Waverley and so drive out to Waverley.

763
00:44:13.280 --> 00:44:14.679
And I think at this point I wasn't in the

764
00:44:14.679 --> 00:44:17.039
class anymore, and I think I was, Yeah, I was

765
00:44:17.079 --> 00:44:21.920
at KU at that point. So we drove out to Waverley.

766
00:44:22.199 --> 00:44:25.679
We're investigating Waverly, which is just a beast and if

767
00:44:25.679 --> 00:44:27.239
you ever get a chance to go, you should go

768
00:44:27.360 --> 00:44:32.239
to go. Yeah, go when it's warm. Though it's cool.

769
00:44:32.320 --> 00:44:33.079
We didn't do that.

770
00:44:34.199 --> 00:44:34.840
We did not do that.

771
00:44:34.840 --> 00:44:37.119
We always went and like I'm actually putting that note down,

772
00:44:37.239 --> 00:44:38.760
go when warm.

773
00:44:39.039 --> 00:44:42.760
Yeah, we went in like March. I think we went

774
00:44:42.800 --> 00:44:43.679
over spring break.

775
00:44:43.920 --> 00:44:47.480
I think we needed to. This is right around now,

776
00:44:47.559 --> 00:44:49.679
so like you're rolling the dice, it could be seventy.

777
00:44:51.039 --> 00:44:51.960
Or give me thirty.

778
00:44:52.039 --> 00:44:55.719
Yeah, so so we're at Waverly and we had been

779
00:44:56.000 --> 00:44:59.239
we had been investigating for a while. And if you

780
00:44:59.280 --> 00:45:01.559
know anything about layout of weight, really it's kind of

781
00:45:01.559 --> 00:45:03.800
a V shape and there's two wings and kind of

782
00:45:03.800 --> 00:45:07.920
a central kind of I don't know, column of staircases

783
00:45:08.000 --> 00:45:12.920
basically that takes show ups each different floor. And we

784
00:45:12.920 --> 00:45:16.199
were down on we were down on the far end

785
00:45:16.280 --> 00:45:20.039
of I think the second or first floor, and we

786
00:45:20.039 --> 00:45:22.440
were going to go back to their like kind of

787
00:45:22.440 --> 00:45:24.360
gift shop area because it kind of used that as

788
00:45:24.400 --> 00:45:26.280
like your staging area, so you leave all your stuff

789
00:45:26.320 --> 00:45:28.199
in there and all that, and it's heated and so

790
00:45:28.239 --> 00:45:32.360
you can have or whatever. Yeah, so so we were

791
00:45:32.360 --> 00:45:37.000
walking and we're just you know, headed back. We weren't

792
00:45:37.000 --> 00:45:40.519
you know, we weren't actively investigating. We were probably talking

793
00:45:40.559 --> 00:45:44.559
about who knows what, and we're just you know, moving

794
00:45:44.559 --> 00:45:46.480
at a decent clip because we're trying to get back.

795
00:45:46.519 --> 00:45:49.639
I think we probably wanted snacks or something. And so, yeah,

796
00:45:49.800 --> 00:45:52.440
we cross, we get to the point the middle of

797
00:45:52.480 --> 00:45:54.280
the little kind of V shape, and we get to

798
00:45:54.320 --> 00:45:56.639
the point we're going to turn the corner across the stairwells,

799
00:45:57.920 --> 00:46:00.880
and we turned that corner and just out of the

800
00:46:00.920 --> 00:46:03.639
corner of my eye as we as we come around,

801
00:46:03.840 --> 00:46:06.480
and I was on the side closest to the stairwells

802
00:46:06.480 --> 00:46:11.920
and it was me, my wife and Chris and we

803
00:46:12.000 --> 00:46:16.719
come around the corner, and I swore that there was

804
00:46:16.760 --> 00:46:19.599
a homeless person down in the bottom of the stairwell.

805
00:46:19.599 --> 00:46:21.119
And that was one thing they warned us about, was

806
00:46:21.159 --> 00:46:23.199
like sometimes people come squat in there, and so like,

807
00:46:23.320 --> 00:46:25.960
be you know, aware that that could happen, you know,

808
00:46:26.960 --> 00:46:32.039
And I like, I stopped so fast I almost should

809
00:46:32.039 --> 00:46:34.760
have like fallen over because I was like trying to

810
00:46:34.880 --> 00:46:38.559
see down the stairwell as I'm coming around the corner,

811
00:46:38.599 --> 00:46:40.639
cause I'm like, what in the world was that right?

812
00:46:41.519 --> 00:46:43.360
And I come around the corner, there's nothing there, And

813
00:46:43.400 --> 00:46:45.840
I mean I went down the stairs. I was looking

814
00:46:45.920 --> 00:46:49.159
down underneath the stairwell. I was like, how there was

815
00:46:49.199 --> 00:46:54.400
a person in here, someone was here and nothing, nobody

816
00:46:54.440 --> 00:46:57.119
was there, and I well, don't know what to make

817
00:46:57.199 --> 00:46:59.840
me say it it was I think that's probably like

818
00:46:59.880 --> 00:47:05.559
the weirdest like full body apparition type experience I've ever had.

819
00:47:06.199 --> 00:47:09.519
And it's still like I can still see what that

820
00:47:09.559 --> 00:47:12.440
looked like in my head. And yeah, for.

821
00:47:12.360 --> 00:47:14.119
Those that that might not know where it is.

822
00:47:14.119 --> 00:47:19.719
Waverley, Louisville, Kentucky. Yeah, yeah, it's an uld.

823
00:47:20.880 --> 00:47:24.199
Yeah, it's it's pretty. I mean it says as big

824
00:47:24.280 --> 00:47:25.679
as it seems it is.

825
00:47:25.840 --> 00:47:30.360
It's really large, yes, because it's just the wings, it's

826
00:47:30.639 --> 00:47:31.360
it's wild.

827
00:47:31.719 --> 00:47:33.920
Yeah, And I've never been there, but I've always wanted

828
00:47:33.960 --> 00:47:34.159
to go.

829
00:47:34.440 --> 00:47:37.480
It's a cool location and it gets kind of weird.

830
00:47:37.519 --> 00:47:40.480
But all the floors are relatively the same, so you

831
00:47:40.519 --> 00:47:43.519
get really I I always felt like I got very

832
00:47:43.519 --> 00:47:46.440
turned around in there, right at.

833
00:47:47.480 --> 00:47:49.079
The graffiti is different.

834
00:47:48.719 --> 00:47:50.840
On each floor. Yes, yeah, you like have to really

835
00:47:50.880 --> 00:47:53.480
pay attention to, like, you know where it says Satan

836
00:47:53.559 --> 00:47:55.079
rules and where it doesn't, you know.

837
00:47:55.639 --> 00:48:00.840
Right right, Yeah, Yeah, that's yeah, I.

838
00:48:02.519 --> 00:48:06.760
Can think of I've had a lot of strange experiences.

839
00:48:07.840 --> 00:48:11.400
Let's there was one. This was a weird one. We

840
00:48:11.400 --> 00:48:13.159
were doing a house blessing.

841
00:48:15.199 --> 00:48:17.280
And when we do that, you know, we had done

842
00:48:17.400 --> 00:48:19.559
the inside of the house and then we do the perimeter.

843
00:48:19.679 --> 00:48:21.559
We go outside and we blessed the perimeter.

844
00:48:23.559 --> 00:48:26.360
And while we were out there, we're saying prayers, were

845
00:48:26.360 --> 00:48:29.719
doing a variety of different things, and we all heard

846
00:48:29.760 --> 00:48:35.320
something running up at us, and something grabbed me by

847
00:48:35.360 --> 00:48:39.840
the throat and started choking me physically and pushed me back.

848
00:48:39.920 --> 00:48:43.119
And the people who were with me saw like the

849
00:48:43.159 --> 00:48:52.280
finger footprints around my throat with that happening, and.

850
00:48:49.960 --> 00:48:50.880
That was a weird one.

851
00:48:51.400 --> 00:48:54.159
The way it sort of stopped it, honestly, was was

852
00:48:54.159 --> 00:48:58.960
with holy water, which is exercise water. That and some prayers.

853
00:48:59.000 --> 00:49:01.119
But but yeah, something was actually holding me by the

854
00:49:01.159 --> 00:49:04.440
throat kind of pulling me up and it was so

855
00:49:04.519 --> 00:49:04.920
that was a.

856
00:49:06.480 --> 00:49:07.320
That was dramatic.

857
00:49:07.960 --> 00:49:14.920
Yeah, you know, I have this habit of getting scratched,

858
00:49:14.960 --> 00:49:15.760
like wherever we go.

859
00:49:15.840 --> 00:49:19.440
I don't know that are everywhere.

860
00:49:19.639 --> 00:49:21.320
You're kind of a magnet for everything.

861
00:49:21.960 --> 00:49:23.360
Yeah, it's just very strange.

862
00:49:24.000 --> 00:49:27.000
You should you should tell your your Sally House setting

863
00:49:27.079 --> 00:49:28.800
up the DVR system story.

864
00:49:29.679 --> 00:49:32.760
Oh yeah, So we we did the public investigations at

865
00:49:32.760 --> 00:49:38.000
the Sally House for a good five years, and so

866
00:49:38.199 --> 00:49:40.079
every time we would get there before the public and

867
00:49:40.119 --> 00:49:42.840
we'd set up our DVR system so that they didn't

868
00:49:42.840 --> 00:49:44.480
have to watch us set the stupid thing up.

869
00:49:46.679 --> 00:49:49.079
A while. We had it down to a science, after all.

870
00:49:49.599 --> 00:49:51.239
Yeah, I don't know, I don't know if we could

871
00:49:51.239 --> 00:49:52.960
do it that quick now, But when we were.

872
00:49:52.800 --> 00:49:57.280
Doing it all the time, but yeah, so we were

873
00:49:57.360 --> 00:50:00.360
setting up and you know, the nursery and the Sally

874
00:50:00.440 --> 00:50:02.960
House is the room that everyone talks about. We actually

875
00:50:03.000 --> 00:50:05.559
had more experiences in the master bedroom than I think

876
00:50:05.599 --> 00:50:07.920
we did in the nursery. But we always set up

877
00:50:07.920 --> 00:50:09.760
the camera and we always set up the animals in

878
00:50:09.800 --> 00:50:13.119
a circle. And if you've seen the on all the

879
00:50:13.119 --> 00:50:14.639
TV shows, when they do it, they're like, oh, we

880
00:50:14.719 --> 00:50:16.480
set up the animals and a circlees because of a

881
00:50:16.519 --> 00:50:19.519
story that was told. But so I was up in

882
00:50:19.519 --> 00:50:21.079
there and I was setting up the camera, setting up

883
00:50:21.079 --> 00:50:26.000
the stuffed animals, and there's a several different toys in there.

884
00:50:26.119 --> 00:50:29.320
One of them is a large rubber ball, or actually

885
00:50:29.320 --> 00:50:30.440
there were a couple of balls, but there was this

886
00:50:30.519 --> 00:50:31.519
large rubber ball that.

887
00:50:32.199 --> 00:50:36.199
Hit me in the in my back. So something clearly,

888
00:50:36.239 --> 00:50:37.760
you know, threw the thing at me.

889
00:50:38.880 --> 00:50:45.000
But of course I hadn't clicked the camera, of course, right,

890
00:50:46.199 --> 00:50:48.719
So yeah, yeah, that was interesting.

891
00:50:49.159 --> 00:50:49.679
I've had a.

892
00:50:49.599 --> 00:50:52.599
Whole bunch of battery draam, you know, all the time,

893
00:50:53.000 --> 00:50:56.039
all the time, just wild, but not not just with

894
00:50:56.800 --> 00:51:03.440
paranormal but also with cryptids. Okay, which was wild. I

895
00:51:03.480 --> 00:51:05.840
mean I think it was a crypto. I didn't see

896
00:51:05.840 --> 00:51:10.119
it but I it's and that's a whole story into itself.

897
00:51:10.199 --> 00:51:13.239
But anyway, well we may have to have you.

898
00:51:13.280 --> 00:51:17.159
On Yeah maybe, Yeah, I would gladly come on it.

899
00:51:17.559 --> 00:51:20.800
It's just what I do have some crazy stories. I mean,

900
00:51:20.840 --> 00:51:24.440
and it's not like I don't have like dozens, I

901
00:51:24.519 --> 00:51:25.599
have like four or five.

902
00:51:26.159 --> 00:51:26.519
Right.

903
00:51:26.639 --> 00:51:29.159
Well, you know we're talking about doing a two part

904
00:51:29.239 --> 00:51:32.960
series on Sasquatch, so that might be a great time.

905
00:51:33.119 --> 00:51:43.519
Yeah, definitely. So do you think like the paranormal might

906
00:51:43.599 --> 00:51:49.920
represent something about reality that we just simply don't understand yet?

907
00:51:50.559 --> 00:51:54.159
I guess that's the best way to describe that question.

908
00:51:55.599 --> 00:52:00.360
Yeah, I don't know if we have the same opinion

909
00:52:00.360 --> 00:52:00.559
on this.

910
00:52:00.599 --> 00:52:01.559
I'll let you go first.

911
00:52:02.159 --> 00:52:04.760
Yeah, yeah, I don't. Actually, I'm about to learn something

912
00:52:04.760 --> 00:52:09.079
about Chris. I think, you know, for me, I think

913
00:52:09.119 --> 00:52:11.880
a lot about man. I'm just I am really the

914
00:52:11.880 --> 00:52:16.159
theory guy, and you're really the methods person today, Chris.

915
00:52:15.239 --> 00:52:18.400
That's all that's true all the time.

916
00:52:18.960 --> 00:52:23.119
I'm always I think about you know, there's so anth

917
00:52:23.280 --> 00:52:25.639
I'm gonna I'm gonna put on my like really academic

918
00:52:25.679 --> 00:52:29.239
hat for a second, so bear with me. So in anthropology,

919
00:52:29.280 --> 00:52:34.400
we have these like theoretical turns is what we call them. Basically,

920
00:52:34.440 --> 00:52:38.320
what it means is a theorist writes a book or

921
00:52:38.360 --> 00:52:42.920
a paper and everybody just decides that, oh my gosh,

922
00:52:42.960 --> 00:52:45.199
we were all wrong. This is how we should be

923
00:52:45.280 --> 00:52:49.159
understanding everything right. And so you can look through like

924
00:52:49.239 --> 00:52:54.000
the course of anthropological theory as a series of these turns.

925
00:52:54.000 --> 00:52:56.320
And really it's just like somebody's paper got really popular

926
00:52:56.360 --> 00:52:59.599
and everybody likes it. But we like to anthropologists really

927
00:52:59.639 --> 00:53:02.800
like to aim and label stuff like all of us

928
00:53:02.800 --> 00:53:07.280
have our own little sub field. That's yeah, I guess

929
00:53:07.320 --> 00:53:11.039
I don't know. It gets annoying in my opinion. But anyway,

930
00:53:11.400 --> 00:53:15.519
so recently, the one of the more recent turns is

931
00:53:15.599 --> 00:53:20.800
what's called the ontological turn and and I'm gonna forget

932
00:53:20.800 --> 00:53:23.480
the forget the book, but it's a guy by the

933
00:53:23.559 --> 00:53:28.119
name of Vivierioste Castro wrote a book about some group

934
00:53:28.159 --> 00:53:32.760
in South America, and basically it was about their relationship

935
00:53:32.880 --> 00:53:36.280
to their environment and how they understood themselves in relationship

936
00:53:36.719 --> 00:53:39.559
with their environment. And it really led to this sort

937
00:53:39.599 --> 00:53:45.559
of interest in sort of non human or multi species,

938
00:53:45.639 --> 00:53:49.320
cross species ethnography and cultural anthropology. So that's the idea

939
00:53:49.360 --> 00:53:54.599
that like we could understand the cultural interactions within groups

940
00:53:54.599 --> 00:53:58.199
that are not human, which is a really sort of

941
00:53:58.199 --> 00:54:03.320
controversial take in anthropology. Yeah, and I think a lot

942
00:54:03.360 --> 00:54:06.719
about that when I think about this question, because the

943
00:54:06.760 --> 00:54:11.920
premise of the ontological turn really is that we think

944
00:54:11.960 --> 00:54:16.960
we have this way of understanding the world that makes

945
00:54:17.039 --> 00:54:21.880
sense to us from a sort of Western perspective, right,

946
00:54:21.920 --> 00:54:27.320
and so we have this sort of reductionist, materialist perspective

947
00:54:27.400 --> 00:54:30.199
that like, we like to reduce everything down to its

948
00:54:30.400 --> 00:54:33.079
tiniest thing that we can hold on to and point to.

949
00:54:34.119 --> 00:54:37.760
And if we can't do that, then we start to

950
00:54:38.039 --> 00:54:40.159
then we're like, oh, well, that can't be real. It's

951
00:54:40.199 --> 00:54:44.840
not a thing. And the ontological turn really argues that

952
00:54:44.920 --> 00:54:49.360
for anthropologists we should be taking, we should really be

953
00:54:49.480 --> 00:54:53.440
taking seriously the world views of the people we work with,

954
00:54:53.639 --> 00:54:58.039
not just for understanding their own experiences in the world,

955
00:54:59.079 --> 00:55:02.639
but for how we understand the world as a species.

956
00:55:03.760 --> 00:55:07.639
And so I think in a lot of ways, we

957
00:55:07.800 --> 00:55:11.719
just don't have a way yet for us to explain

958
00:55:11.880 --> 00:55:15.239
all of this stuff, and so we haven't really had

959
00:55:15.480 --> 00:55:18.599
we haven't found the sort of ontological pieces that help

960
00:55:18.679 --> 00:55:22.000
us sort of explain all of those things. And I think,

961
00:55:22.039 --> 00:55:24.679
like you can look at like doctor Jack Hunter. He's

962
00:55:24.719 --> 00:55:27.320
a guy if you're unfamiliar, he's an anthropologist out of

963
00:55:27.320 --> 00:55:31.679
the UK who he talks about ontological flooding, which is

964
00:55:31.760 --> 00:55:34.760
kind of built out of this idea and the thought

965
00:55:34.800 --> 00:55:37.480
process is, you know, basically, we're just gonna throw all

966
00:55:37.519 --> 00:55:41.920
of the possibilities that could explain this at this question

967
00:55:42.920 --> 00:55:46.719
and just see what sticks. And we're not gonna you know,

968
00:55:46.800 --> 00:55:49.119
sit and hand ring about, oh well that doesn't fit

969
00:55:49.159 --> 00:55:53.280
into our Western paradigm. We just we we can't handle that,

970
00:55:53.360 --> 00:55:54.800
you know. It's like we're just gonna throw it at

971
00:55:54.840 --> 00:55:56.719
it and see if if it explains it, it explains it.

972
00:55:56.760 --> 00:55:58.960
We'll figure that out later stick.

973
00:55:59.440 --> 00:55:59.719
Yeah.

974
00:56:00.119 --> 00:56:02.400
So I think about that a lot, is that we

975
00:56:02.440 --> 00:56:06.360
don't really have yet a way of explaining it, or

976
00:56:06.400 --> 00:56:09.440
we might have it, but we don't take it seriously.

977
00:56:09.519 --> 00:56:12.320
And so kind of this idea of let's just understand

978
00:56:12.360 --> 00:56:13.480
all of the possibilities.

979
00:56:15.519 --> 00:56:16.079
I like it.

980
00:56:17.920 --> 00:56:25.119
Yeah, I I'm not a theoretician. I'm a kind of

981
00:56:25.119 --> 00:56:30.480
a science nerd, you know. Yeah, I'm an anthropologist. Remember,

982
00:56:30.519 --> 00:56:32.480
I love it, you know, in the intersection of medicine. Yeah,

983
00:56:34.760 --> 00:56:37.599
I'm a big fan of thinking about things that we

984
00:56:37.760 --> 00:56:41.280
just don't understand yet absolutely, But I think about it

985
00:56:41.320 --> 00:56:47.320
in terms of dimensionality and multidimensionality. I think there's a

986
00:56:47.360 --> 00:56:50.280
lot of explanation that can be had if we're willing

987
00:56:50.320 --> 00:56:54.159
to accept the ideas of fourth, fifth, sixth, et cetera. Dimensions,

988
00:56:54.679 --> 00:56:58.039
and that might explain some things to us. I'm also

989
00:56:58.079 --> 00:57:02.519
of the opinion that we have forgotten more knowledge than

990
00:57:02.599 --> 00:57:06.360
we have held onto over as a as a species. Yes,

991
00:57:06.760 --> 00:57:09.599
and I think I think at one time we.

992
00:57:09.639 --> 00:57:11.960
Understood this stuff a lot better than we do now.

993
00:57:12.280 --> 00:57:16.679
And that's where a lot of these things originally came from,

994
00:57:16.920 --> 00:57:19.920
was knowledge that we have had and lost. And I

995
00:57:19.920 --> 00:57:23.599
think it's knowledge about extra senses that we as people

996
00:57:24.159 --> 00:57:30.960
still have but forget about, and interactions with other dimensions.

997
00:57:30.960 --> 00:57:31.920
For lack of a better way of.

998
00:57:31.880 --> 00:57:35.119
Saying, and again, I think it's I think it's things

999
00:57:35.119 --> 00:57:38.920
that we've forgotten and will hopefully one day get back.

1000
00:57:39.199 --> 00:57:42.000
But I worry that we're moving in a direction knowledge

1001
00:57:42.039 --> 00:57:45.480
base wise, away from where we need to be, because

1002
00:57:45.519 --> 00:57:47.639
anybody who thinks about some of these things that are

1003
00:57:47.679 --> 00:57:52.000
a little more different, a little more out there, is

1004
00:57:52.039 --> 00:57:55.599
shunned by the academic community. And so how are we

1005
00:57:55.599 --> 00:57:57.920
going to get that knowledge back. You know, if we

1006
00:57:58.079 --> 00:58:00.920
just keep setting sort of reproved the things that we

1007
00:58:01.079 --> 00:58:04.760
already know, that's not useful at all, and it actually

1008
00:58:04.840 --> 00:58:07.920
gets rid of knowledge. And so if we can't open

1009
00:58:07.960 --> 00:58:09.920
our minds, we're not going to get that knowledge back.

1010
00:58:10.960 --> 00:58:16.400
Yeah, I've definitely started looking more towards a that we

1011
00:58:16.480 --> 00:58:20.360
have all this information within us, like an epigenetic type of.

1012
00:58:20.679 --> 00:58:22.079
Yes, no, epigenetics.

1013
00:58:22.079 --> 00:58:24.840
Absolutely, we have so much information from epigenetic I mean,

1014
00:58:24.920 --> 00:58:26.480
if it's real.

1015
00:58:26.719 --> 00:58:31.320
Like if I can pass trauma on the yes, my kids,

1016
00:58:31.519 --> 00:58:34.880
then there's there's more information there than we can ever

1017
00:58:35.119 --> 00:58:38.480
even you know, I mean the fact that ninety eight

1018
00:58:38.480 --> 00:58:41.800
percent of our genome they have no idea technically what

1019
00:58:41.880 --> 00:58:43.960
it is called the junk DNA.

1020
00:58:44.800 --> 00:58:45.519
Is not junk.

1021
00:58:46.000 --> 00:58:46.800
It's not junk.

1022
00:58:47.480 --> 00:58:50.760
So these are a lot of these are memories, frankly

1023
00:58:50.840 --> 00:58:54.639
imprinted and I say memories so loosely, but memory is

1024
00:58:54.679 --> 00:58:58.280
imprinted on our genome. So that's my thoughts.

1025
00:58:58.559 --> 00:59:03.280
But well, we're I mean, we're tipping just getting the tip.

1026
00:59:03.079 --> 00:59:05.599
Of the iceberg with EPIX for sure, And there's a

1027
00:59:05.639 --> 00:59:09.239
lot of people who still really don't believe that trauma

1028
00:59:09.320 --> 00:59:11.000
is passed down, and it's like, no, we actually have

1029
00:59:11.119 --> 00:59:12.280
clear evidence of this.

1030
00:59:12.599 --> 00:59:16.480
Oh yeah, in the DNA and so on, some pretty

1031
00:59:16.599 --> 00:59:22.199
robust studies, especially on Holocaust survivors and famine survivors, and

1032
00:59:22.679 --> 00:59:26.239
a few of these studies that are it's pretty robust.

1033
00:59:26.599 --> 00:59:29.920
So yeah, wild wild.

1034
00:59:29.880 --> 00:59:30.039
But.

1035
00:59:33.079 --> 00:59:36.679
Yeah, I started getting into that because I I'm a

1036
00:59:36.760 --> 00:59:41.840
veteran and have post traumatic stress issues. So I was like,

1037
00:59:41.920 --> 00:59:44.719
oh my gosh, how's this going to affect my kids? Possibly?

1038
00:59:44.840 --> 00:59:47.800
You know, So I started digging deep into that and

1039
00:59:48.159 --> 00:59:53.280
headed right down the rabbit hole. So yeah, so kind

1040
00:59:53.320 --> 00:59:56.199
of wrapping things up a little bit, can you guys

1041
00:59:56.239 --> 01:00:01.320
give me a paranormal case that everyone should research.

1042
01:00:03.559 --> 01:00:04.719
Okay, I got your opinion.

1043
01:00:04.920 --> 01:00:09.840
I got it. It's our most popular episode. It's it's

1044
01:00:09.840 --> 01:00:14.880
and this is not even dough but no, no, this

1045
01:00:15.000 --> 01:00:17.280
is this is a shameless plug. But also I think

1046
01:00:17.320 --> 01:00:23.440
it's true Morgellon's disease, folks. Okay, so just the like,

1047
01:00:24.360 --> 01:00:28.280
I'll set the stage for you. Imagine you wake up

1048
01:00:28.320 --> 01:00:36.639
tomorrow and you have this awful, creepy Crawley sensations underneath

1049
01:00:36.679 --> 01:00:41.239
your skin. Your skin is unbelievably itchy. Nothing you're doing

1050
01:00:41.360 --> 01:00:45.280
is working to relieve it. And then you start to

1051
01:00:45.320 --> 01:00:49.719
see little fibers coming out of sores on your skin.

1052
01:00:51.119 --> 01:00:54.559
And these are not fibers that you picked up from

1053
01:00:54.760 --> 01:00:58.880
your clothes. They're embedded in these sores. They're embedded in

1054
01:00:58.920 --> 01:01:02.559
your skin. And then what does any what would any

1055
01:01:03.280 --> 01:01:06.679
rational person do? Right, We're gonna go down to the

1056
01:01:06.800 --> 01:01:11.320
urgent care or you know, your local PCP or dermatologist.

1057
01:01:11.480 --> 01:01:15.840
You've got good insurance, right, and there you go, what

1058
01:01:16.039 --> 01:01:19.320
is happening to me? And you're gonna roll into that

1059
01:01:19.400 --> 01:01:24.239
doctor's office and they're gonna tell you, oh, you've got

1060
01:01:24.280 --> 01:01:31.119
delusions of parasitosis and what does that mean? Yeah, we're

1061
01:01:31.159 --> 01:01:35.760
gonna put you on some antipsychotics. You're just crazy. That's

1062
01:01:35.840 --> 01:01:40.599
basically mor Gellon's in a nutshell and it is the

1063
01:01:40.719 --> 01:01:43.880
wildest thing. And this is the one like I, as

1064
01:01:43.960 --> 01:01:48.199
you've seen, Chris is the hardcore medical one. She's like,

1065
01:01:48.519 --> 01:01:51.840
I'm into it. But that's Chris's wheelhouse. Like she'll talk

1066
01:01:51.920 --> 01:01:55.480
your leg about things like APPI, genetics and all of

1067
01:01:55.480 --> 01:01:55.920
the stuff.

1068
01:01:56.039 --> 01:01:56.239
Right.

1069
01:01:56.960 --> 01:02:00.400
This is the thing that gets me is we did

1070
01:02:00.400 --> 01:02:03.639
a project last year or a year and a half

1071
01:02:03.679 --> 01:02:05.679
ago or so, I don't know, how long ago it was,

1072
01:02:06.320 --> 01:02:13.840
and we interviewed folks that have more gallons, and I

1073
01:02:14.039 --> 01:02:20.239
just it baffles the mind, not only because it's just

1074
01:02:20.400 --> 01:02:25.519
weird and people are really having this experience, but the

1075
01:02:25.559 --> 01:02:30.360
Western medical system is just like, we don't know, they're

1076
01:02:30.400 --> 01:02:35.480
just crazy, right, And so I think you're not what

1077
01:02:36.599 --> 01:02:38.519
I think more gallons is the one. I think.

1078
01:02:38.719 --> 01:02:41.880
Yeah, it's a really it's a really fascinating disease. And

1079
01:02:42.519 --> 01:02:45.480
my personal take on it is I think it is infectious.

1080
01:02:45.840 --> 01:02:48.960
There's some evidence that it is another manifestation.

1081
01:02:48.440 --> 01:02:51.280
Of lime disease long lime disease, okay.

1082
01:02:51.239 --> 01:02:53.679
But there's also it's it's possible it's another type of

1083
01:02:53.719 --> 01:02:56.079
spira key to spier key is what the thing that

1084
01:02:56.159 --> 01:02:59.360
causes win disease, also called you know, other spirs.

1085
01:02:59.480 --> 01:03:00.800
Heat's caused things like syphilis.

1086
01:03:00.880 --> 01:03:06.639
So yes, right, yeah, little cork screwed, yeah exactly.

1087
01:03:06.719 --> 01:03:09.000
Yeah, And you know, there's a lot of evidence that

1088
01:03:09.039 --> 01:03:10.480
it may be lime disease.

1089
01:03:10.559 --> 01:03:14.159
But regardless, it seems like a sextious process.

1090
01:03:15.320 --> 01:03:18.440
And the medical community, I mean, people walk in they

1091
01:03:18.480 --> 01:03:21.719
say I think I have morgellons, and doctors don't even

1092
01:03:21.719 --> 01:03:22.320
examine them.

1093
01:03:22.320 --> 01:03:24.639
They tell them go see a shrink.

1094
01:03:24.679 --> 01:03:26.760
And it's like and to the third floor please.

1095
01:03:27.039 --> 01:03:29.719
Yeah, and that's that is medical malpractice.

1096
01:03:29.760 --> 01:03:31.920
First of all, if you're a physician, you examine your

1097
01:03:31.960 --> 01:03:33.000
patient and get a history.

1098
01:03:33.079 --> 01:03:37.119
But okay, really fascinating disease.

1099
01:03:37.360 --> 01:03:39.400
And I think the piece about that that like sticks

1100
01:03:39.400 --> 01:03:41.000
with me is We've got a guy that we work with,

1101
01:03:41.039 --> 01:03:44.239
he's a social worker, and we asked him. We asked

1102
01:03:44.320 --> 01:03:46.679
him not that long ago, like okay, we laid it

1103
01:03:46.679 --> 01:03:48.400
out for him. You know, someone has this, they go

1104
01:03:48.480 --> 01:03:51.360
to the doctor, they go to their just regular old,

1105
01:03:51.440 --> 01:03:54.840
you know, standard family dog. And that's the response. And

1106
01:03:54.880 --> 01:03:56.960
he goes, yeah, no, that needs to be referred out,

1107
01:03:57.159 --> 01:03:59.400
like that needs a specialist, needs to see that, like

1108
01:03:59.440 --> 01:04:05.000
a family doesn't have the knowledge to even make that diagnosis. Yeah,

1109
01:04:05.320 --> 01:04:08.719
and so that, yeah.

1110
01:04:07.960 --> 01:04:12.880
You can go down the rabbit hole more. And it's

1111
01:04:13.280 --> 01:04:17.519
possible based on where it came from and and some

1112
01:04:17.599 --> 01:04:19.960
things about how lime disease developed, that this might have

1113
01:04:20.039 --> 01:04:20.920
been a bio weapon.

1114
01:04:21.400 --> 01:04:27.400
Okay, I'm from Connecticut, so I I man, and I

1115
01:04:28.039 --> 01:04:29.199
know all about.

1116
01:04:30.440 --> 01:04:34.400
You know, the couple islands and mime talk, and yeah,

1117
01:04:34.880 --> 01:04:37.199
there's there's some stories from all these.

1118
01:04:37.719 --> 01:04:40.559
Bell Island, clumb Island, maybe.

1119
01:04:41.840 --> 01:04:44.159
Island and Montalk both.

1120
01:04:44.480 --> 01:04:47.119
And there's there's a fascinating book called Bitten.

1121
01:04:49.000 --> 01:04:52.760
What's the other's name, Chris Nuby, Chris Newby, and it's

1122
01:04:52.800 --> 01:04:57.599
about the origins of lime disease and talking to the

1123
01:04:57.639 --> 01:05:02.360
guy who actually identified uh, the spira keyt.

1124
01:05:03.800 --> 01:05:07.119
And he sort of insinuates that this might have been

1125
01:05:07.159 --> 01:05:08.199
government developed.

1126
01:05:08.320 --> 01:05:13.440
Yeah, I mean, there's some serious evidence that actually points

1127
01:05:13.519 --> 01:05:14.039
that direction.

1128
01:05:14.199 --> 01:05:15.960
So it's interesting.

1129
01:05:15.920 --> 01:05:19.840
Talking about genetics of course, right again, yeah, gets it

1130
01:05:19.880 --> 01:05:26.239
gets wild. Two more questions, guys, sure this one just

1131
01:05:26.400 --> 01:05:30.280
hit me. The other one's a candle, and that I

1132
01:05:30.320 --> 01:05:37.039
ask everybody. But so, like, if if humanity eventually proves

1133
01:05:37.960 --> 01:05:43.840
that paranormal phenomenon are real, how, in your opinions, how

1134
01:05:43.840 --> 01:05:52.760
would that change our understanding of ourselves.

1135
01:05:53.960 --> 01:05:58.400
I think that it may. I think it would cause

1136
01:05:58.719 --> 01:06:02.000
a level of sort of existential shock in the sense

1137
01:06:02.079 --> 01:06:07.199
that this is true. I'm in a lot of cultures,

1138
01:06:07.239 --> 01:06:11.760
not all of them, but many cultures put humans relatively

1139
01:06:11.800 --> 01:06:14.000
close to the high, to the top of the hierarchy.

1140
01:06:15.840 --> 01:06:20.320
And I think for many folks, particularly in Western countries,

1141
01:06:20.360 --> 01:06:25.679
European countries, the US, understanding that we are maybe not

1142
01:06:26.400 --> 01:06:28.960
at the top of that food thing, so to speak,

1143
01:06:29.199 --> 01:06:31.639
I think would be and I mean you can see

1144
01:06:31.639 --> 01:06:35.880
it in conversation about disclosure right now, you know. I

1145
01:06:35.920 --> 01:06:42.280
think people would have to do some serious reworking or

1146
01:06:42.320 --> 01:06:44.599
just completely ignore it, which is probably what would happen,

1147
01:06:45.679 --> 01:06:50.840
like some serious, completely ostrich I don't know, this isn't real, right.

1148
01:06:51.440 --> 01:06:54.360
I think if folks were to take it seriously, I

1149
01:06:54.360 --> 01:06:55.599
think a lot of folks would have to do some

1150
01:06:55.679 --> 01:06:58.360
really serious reworking of understanding like where they fit in

1151
01:06:58.400 --> 01:07:00.920
the universe. And I think some sense that might not

1152
01:07:00.960 --> 01:07:05.199
be a bad thing, but I think for a lot.

1153
01:07:05.199 --> 01:07:08.679
All right, he is a spirituality certainly where we get

1154
01:07:08.719 --> 01:07:12.840
in the universe, not necessarily religiosity, but like the idea

1155
01:07:12.960 --> 01:07:15.320
in spiritual where are we.

1156
01:07:15.599 --> 01:07:17.800
In this hierarchy exactly?

1157
01:07:17.920 --> 01:07:21.400
Yeah, but I have to say I don't think there

1158
01:07:21.440 --> 01:07:25.039
are some people who, no matter what you do, you

1159
01:07:25.079 --> 01:07:26.320
will never prove.

1160
01:07:26.119 --> 01:07:28.679
This stuff to them. I mean, I'm just thinking stupid. Example,

1161
01:07:28.760 --> 01:07:31.039
one one day when we were at the Sally House.

1162
01:07:32.440 --> 01:07:35.639
Yeah, there's a woman who's on the group do It,

1163
01:07:35.679 --> 01:07:38.760
you know, the public group, and we she was kind

1164
01:07:38.800 --> 01:07:41.679
of she's kind of making fun of whatever was there,

1165
01:07:41.920 --> 01:07:45.719
you know, as one shouldn't do but does there was

1166
01:07:46.280 --> 01:07:48.440
one or two people with a group of twenty from

1167
01:07:48.440 --> 01:07:48.880
the public.

1168
01:07:49.039 --> 01:07:51.079
There's always antagonists.

1169
01:07:50.280 --> 01:07:56.360
And there's always But this woman, we watched scratches appear

1170
01:07:56.679 --> 01:08:00.760
on her arm, I mean we watched them show up.

1171
01:08:01.119 --> 01:08:03.679
And she's like looking at them. She's like, oh, that

1172
01:08:03.760 --> 01:08:07.519
must I must have done that earlier. And her I

1173
01:08:07.519 --> 01:08:08.400
think it was her daughter.

1174
01:08:09.199 --> 01:08:13.320
It was like, no, we just saw it show up

1175
01:08:13.360 --> 01:08:16.920
and she's like, no, you didn't, Like.

1176
01:08:16.920 --> 01:08:18.680
I mean, we all watched it.

1177
01:08:18.760 --> 01:08:20.960
We're all standing around watching this and she's like, no,

1178
01:08:21.119 --> 01:08:24.800
that didn't happen. So I think for many people, even

1179
01:08:24.880 --> 01:08:31.159
if we have abject proof, I don't think they will

1180
01:08:32.199 --> 01:08:35.079
be willing to and even entertain the idea.

1181
01:08:35.159 --> 01:08:38.359
And I don't know if that's the majority. I kind

1182
01:08:38.359 --> 01:08:39.640
of feel sometimes like it is.

1183
01:08:41.359 --> 01:08:45.680
Yeah, there's like some self preservation around there in their minds.

1184
01:08:45.319 --> 01:08:46.960
At least, you know.

1185
01:08:47.079 --> 01:08:50.159
I mean, how many people have to say.

1186
01:08:51.399 --> 01:08:55.239
That they've seen something or experienced something for it to

1187
01:08:55.399 --> 01:08:56.800
be accepted as real?

1188
01:08:58.239 --> 01:09:00.359
And do we have to have a quote science.

1189
01:09:00.039 --> 01:09:03.079
Tific experiment, because let me tell you, if you're looking

1190
01:09:03.119 --> 01:09:06.039
at something outside of science, science is not going to

1191
01:09:06.159 --> 01:09:11.199
prove it. Yeah, that's not the way it works exactly.

1192
01:09:12.319 --> 01:09:12.520
You know.

1193
01:09:12.560 --> 01:09:15.720
I mean to use I'm looking at sasquatch in your background,

1194
01:09:15.800 --> 01:09:19.399
so like to use the masquatch example. How many people

1195
01:09:19.520 --> 01:09:22.119
have to see the same thing across all these different

1196
01:09:22.159 --> 01:09:25.520
places on the planet before someone says like, oh, okay,

1197
01:09:25.600 --> 01:09:26.680
maybe there's something there.

1198
01:09:27.319 --> 01:09:27.920
Yeah, yeah, I.

1199
01:09:27.960 --> 01:09:30.720
Think I think the answer to that question is that

1200
01:09:31.039 --> 01:09:34.079
I think it has to upset people's everyday life, like

1201
01:09:34.119 --> 01:09:39.039
I think, oh, yeah, until yeah, until until it does that.

1202
01:09:39.319 --> 01:09:41.760
I think. I don't think we'll have my what my

1203
01:09:41.880 --> 01:09:48.399
scenario until that? Yeah, the door that's right, Bigfoot, No,

1204
01:09:48.439 --> 01:09:50.840
Bigfoot's got to be like in the yard like every day,

1205
01:09:50.960 --> 01:09:53.159
like the white tailed dude every every day.

1206
01:09:53.279 --> 01:10:01.439
Well, I have a statue into the yard every day.

1207
01:09:59.680 --> 01:10:00.840
Right for sure.

1208
01:10:02.800 --> 01:10:08.720
So the last question I always give is basically, the

1209
01:10:08.760 --> 01:10:12.079
name of this podcast is broadcasting seeds, and we like

1210
01:10:12.239 --> 01:10:16.840
planting seeds and people's minds and watching them grow. Right,

1211
01:10:17.439 --> 01:10:20.479
So I give you guys the opportunity to plant a

1212
01:10:20.560 --> 01:10:22.319
seed as we leave.

1213
01:10:22.880 --> 01:10:30.039
That's a hard one.

1214
01:10:31.359 --> 01:10:32.279
There's so many.

1215
01:10:32.520 --> 01:10:41.880
Yeah, I think, Okay, I think I have something. I

1216
01:10:41.880 --> 01:10:45.479
think Okay, I think you know, for me, I think

1217
01:10:45.760 --> 01:10:49.399
the thing I always recommend to folks is that so

1218
01:10:49.560 --> 01:10:52.479
even though I said, like, however long ago that most

1219
01:10:52.479 --> 01:10:54.079
of us are into like all of the things a

1220
01:10:54.079 --> 01:10:56.600
little bit, we all kind of have a little like

1221
01:10:56.600 --> 01:10:58.600
like you were saying, you know, cryptosology, and that's why

1222
01:10:58.640 --> 01:11:01.640
it's kind of where you sit, right. We all have

1223
01:11:01.720 --> 01:11:04.479
a spot right there where we sit, whether it's ghosts

1224
01:11:04.560 --> 01:11:08.359
or psychic phenomena or whatever, right, And I think a

1225
01:11:08.359 --> 01:11:13.479
lot of the time we're not good at really digging

1226
01:11:13.520 --> 01:11:17.640
into the stuff that's outside of that space where we sit, right,

1227
01:11:17.760 --> 01:11:20.479
you know, we really dig deep into, you know, whatever

1228
01:11:20.520 --> 01:11:23.319
it is that's our little pet interest in all of this.

1229
01:11:24.279 --> 01:11:29.680
And I think I challenge folks to try to dig

1230
01:11:29.720 --> 01:11:31.680
that deep as much as you can, because there's only

1231
01:11:31.680 --> 01:11:33.239
twenty four hours in the day and life is short.

1232
01:11:33.680 --> 01:11:36.600
But you know, dig as deep as you can into

1233
01:11:36.600 --> 01:11:39.439
those things that are a little bit tangential to your

1234
01:11:39.479 --> 01:11:44.079
your you know, real central interest. Because I found so

1235
01:11:44.159 --> 01:11:46.199
in doing Moulder's bookshelf if I read a lot more

1236
01:11:46.239 --> 01:11:49.520
broadly than I used to in this stuff, and I've

1237
01:11:49.560 --> 01:11:52.920
been I've noticed connections across things that I never would

1238
01:11:52.920 --> 01:11:54.960
have put together on my own, or never would have

1239
01:11:54.960 --> 01:11:59.640
put together without without reading different stuff about different things

1240
01:11:59.720 --> 01:12:02.520
and like, I was all into alien stuff last year,

1241
01:12:02.560 --> 01:12:05.319
and that for me historically was not really my interests.

1242
01:12:05.319 --> 01:12:07.039
And I've found all kinds of stuff and now I

1243
01:12:07.039 --> 01:12:10.760
can't stop talking about. And so I think for folks

1244
01:12:10.760 --> 01:12:13.079
who are really into the paranormal, really dig deep into

1245
01:12:13.079 --> 01:12:16.399
stuff that maybe isn't the stuff that you're always like, oh, yeah,

1246
01:12:16.399 --> 01:12:18.920
I got to watch that newest you know, Sasquatch documentary

1247
01:12:18.960 --> 01:12:20.439
or that newest ghost show or whatever.

1248
01:12:22.359 --> 01:12:23.119
Yeah.

1249
01:12:23.199 --> 01:12:28.199
I would say I would challenge someone that the next

1250
01:12:28.239 --> 01:12:33.399
time someone describes something that happened to them that sounds

1251
01:12:34.840 --> 01:12:41.680
odd or whatever, just believe them. Yeah, next, just just

1252
01:12:42.800 --> 01:12:46.920
decide to believe them and approach it from that angle

1253
01:12:47.039 --> 01:12:51.159
instead instead of the immediate let me debunk all of this.

1254
01:12:51.720 --> 01:12:53.399
Yeah, and I'm a big debunker, like that.

1255
01:12:53.640 --> 01:12:58.880
Huge, but but like, just just try believing them. Next

1256
01:12:58.880 --> 01:13:02.079
time someone says, you know what, I woke up and

1257
01:13:02.119 --> 01:13:06.760
there was a demon standing over me, believe them.

1258
01:13:07.560 --> 01:13:09.159
And you talk about it that way.

1259
01:13:09.560 --> 01:13:11.520
I'm gonna give you a part two to Chris's assignment,

1260
01:13:11.520 --> 01:13:15.760
because that was really good. After you just believe them

1261
01:13:16.079 --> 01:13:20.159
and you go home, sit with why you didn't believe

1262
01:13:20.199 --> 01:13:25.359
them initially and figure out what it is about your experiences,

1263
01:13:26.039 --> 01:13:29.439
because that's the core of an anthropological perspective is we

1264
01:13:29.479 --> 01:13:31.439
all go out there in the world and we all

1265
01:13:31.479 --> 01:13:33.600
have a background, we all have experiences that we have,

1266
01:13:33.720 --> 01:13:36.479
and we just kind of by default use that as

1267
01:13:36.479 --> 01:13:39.039
a filter for everything that happens to us in our lives.

1268
01:13:39.680 --> 01:13:44.680
And the paranormal really challenges us to identify what that

1269
01:13:44.720 --> 01:13:50.800
filter is and understand where that comes from.

1270
01:13:50.840 --> 01:13:51.359
Amazing.

1271
01:13:52.720 --> 01:13:56.560
Yeah, I love it. I love it all. Tell people

1272
01:13:56.640 --> 01:13:58.119
where they can find you, guys again.

1273
01:13:59.840 --> 01:14:04.680
You can find the podcast on Beyond the Human Pod

1274
01:14:04.960 --> 01:14:09.479
on Instagram. You can find us on Facebook, although we

1275
01:14:09.520 --> 01:14:12.319
do most of our stuff on Instagram. You can find

1276
01:14:12.319 --> 01:14:15.279
the podcast itself on all of the places that you

1277
01:14:15.319 --> 01:14:20.600
get podcasts, Spotify, whatever, you know, the list that everybody does,

1278
01:14:20.680 --> 01:14:25.239
you know. And you can find my book reviews on

1279
01:14:25.600 --> 01:14:31.920
Moulder's bookshelf. Am I forgetting anything else, Chris, I.

1280
01:14:31.800 --> 01:14:34.640
Don't think so. I'm gonna have to come up with

1281
01:14:34.680 --> 01:14:36.000
like a Scullies bookshelf.

1282
01:14:36.039 --> 01:14:39.600
Now you got We talked about it. Nice about it.

1283
01:14:39.600 --> 01:14:41.600
It's one of my favorite shows of all time.

1284
01:14:41.640 --> 01:14:44.039
The best. It is the best, there's no comparabion.

1285
01:14:44.800 --> 01:14:48.239
It's the best, all right, guys, I thank you so

1286
01:14:48.359 --> 01:14:49.119
much for coming on.

1287
01:14:49.479 --> 01:14:51.920
This was fun and I'm sure we'll be in touch.

1288
01:14:52.319 --> 01:14:57.800
Thanks for having us our lads and dirt and stone.

1289
01:14:59.600 --> 01:15:08.760
M hm call this world long measure truth by what

1290
01:15:08.880 --> 01:15:15.800
we hold left the rest alone.

1291
01:15:18.640 --> 01:15:24.199
But there's whispers in the timber and footsteps in the snow.

1292
01:15:25.359 --> 01:15:30.520
Every land's got the same old story, just told different slow.

1293
01:15:31.079 --> 01:15:33.000
There's something now there.

1294
01:15:35.239 --> 01:15:39.479
Beyond what do we know, in the quiet place suit

1295
01:15:41.720 --> 01:15:44.079
where the cold winds blow.

1296
01:15:44.319 --> 01:15:52.920
Anger stories ain't just dreams. There's something waiting.

1297
01:15:54.520 --> 01:16:09.760
In between, women talking USh tones.

1298
01:16:11.239 --> 01:16:15.079
About things they've seen, and night.

1299
01:16:17.159 --> 01:16:22.960
Shadows move and across the tree line just outside the

1300
01:16:23.279 --> 01:16:30.960
fire line, from desert dust to mountain, the hollers to

1301
01:16:31.199 --> 01:16:38.159
oceans far and wide, different names, same kind of fierce, something.

1302
01:16:37.840 --> 01:16:45.600
Walking just outside. There's something now there, beyond what we know.

1303
01:16:46.319 --> 01:16:54.199
And still the midnight where the lost things go ain't imagination.

1304
01:16:56.039 --> 01:17:03.840
I ain't believe it's some them breathing underneath.

1305
01:17:21.119 --> 01:17:23.399
What if we forgot the language?

1306
01:17:24.479 --> 01:17:29.159
What if we turned away from the things our fathers

1307
01:17:29.319 --> 01:17:33.760
warned us not to speak, not to say, we build

1308
01:17:33.920 --> 01:17:38.600
our world on reason, left the old truth behind.

1309
01:17:39.920 --> 01:17:41.520
But something still.

1310
01:17:41.239 --> 01:17:45.399
Out there, just waiting to be found.

1311
01:17:47.000 --> 01:17:52.960
There's something now there, beyond what do we know.

1312
01:17:53.720 --> 01:17:59.880
In the deep dark silence, where the old roots grow,

1313
01:18:00.279 --> 01:18:12.079
wanger shadows and just lies, there's something watching with older eyes.

1314
01:18:12.640 --> 01:18:21.720
So if you hear it call, don't pretend you don't.

1315
01:18:24.319 --> 01:18:25.079
Some true.

1316
01:18:26.439 --> 01:18:28.399
Don't knock twice